looking for beta on 7mm rem mag vs 300WM

[sawatch]

I'm looking to get something bigger than my 308 (tikka T3x Superlite) for big game hunting in the rockies/western US. I'm shooting 150g Barnes TTSX BT's and I'm concerned about the lack of expansion at distances greater than 300 on the copper bullets. Last year I shot and killed a bull elk and mule deer buck at 320 and 350-400 respectively, and my exit wounds were tiny. My shot placement was good...bull dead in tracks with one shot and deer dead in two with only 50yards of movement...but when I backtrailed the deer the blood trail was minimal and the exit wound was only slightly bigger than the entry wound. Makes me nervous. I know this is always an issue with nonlead bullets. In talking to Barnes and watching some independent tests, it seems like it's really just about increasing the energy at the point of impact to ensure adequate (or better) expansion. Looking at my hunting areas and shooting abilities, that mean's shooting <450 yards. So with all that in mind, I've found myself looking at two calibers: 300wm and 7mm rem mag.

I'm torn because 300wm is more versatile than the other (more bullet weights, can reuse reloading stuff with my 308) but it also packs more of a recoil punch. The 7mm rem mag has ~25% less recoil but in the Barnes TTSX 150g it has 250ftlbs less at 300 yards than the 300wm.

As a reference point, here's the energy data from Barnes (all 150g TTSX BT) at 300/400y:

308: 2062/1755
7mm rem mag: 2326/1996
300wm: 2643/2252

I'm also not married to Barnes bullets, but I don't want to hunt with lead. In my 308 the barnes just shot the best and had good reviews. I've tried Nosler Expansion tips, Hornaday CX, and Federal Trophy Copper. Haven't tried hammer bullets yet but would like too. Currently I'm leaning 300wm (likely in the tikka t3x superlite again), but I'm also looking at the Kimber Montana and the Seekins PH2.

I know a lot of this is subjective, but curious what folks think between the two. Hit me with your two cents. Also, I've never failed to kill or recover an animal with the 308 150g Barnes...just trying to be proactive.

 

[Axlrod]

Mono's don't have as large of wound channels as cup & core bullets. You can probably get the same results as those bigger cartridges you listed as your 308, if you shoot a lighter mono in the 308. The lighter bullets will have more speed. I have seen quite a few elk taken with 110/120 gr. monos in .270/7mm class cartridges.
For me I don't care if they exit. As your stated results show, if you put it in the right place, there is no tracking.

 

[sawatch]

Mono's don't have as large of wound channels as cup & core bullets. You can probably get the same results as those bigger cartridges you listed as your 308, if you shoot a lighter mono in the 308. The lighter bullets will have more speed. I have seen quite a few elk taken with 110/120 gr. monos in .270/7mm class cartridges.
For me I don't care if they exit. As your stated results show, if you put it in the right place, there is no tracking.

That's a fair point, I haven't tried the 110g or 130g in the barnes ttsx. Barnes shows the 130g as having 1933/1583 ftlbs at 300/400. That's getting awful close to the 1500ftlbs mark I was taught for elk, which is why I didn't buy a box to test.

 

[wind gypsy]

Pay more attention to retained velocity than retained energy, that is what is going to paint a better picture of terminal performance at different ranges.

I've only shot a little with Cutting edge lazers (145 grain 7mm) but they shoot well. They also have a higher BC than a 7mm barnes 168 LRX which means even if they started at the same velocity, they will retain it better and be flatter down range. But being as they are only 145 grains, they start at notably higher velocity than a 168 barnes would at the same pressures too. That all adds up as you stretch distances.

Because of this, I dont think going lighter than 150 in a 308 is going to net you much. Yes, they'll start faster but these low BC lightweight bullets shed velocity fast and you'll be close to where you were with 150s at 450 yards but with more wind drift.

 

[Axlrod]

That's a fair point, I haven't tried the 110g or 130g in the barnes ttsx. Barnes shows the 130g as having 1933/1583 ftlbs at 300/400. That's getting awful close to the 1500ftlbs mark I was taught for elk, which is why I didn't buy a box to test.

I think that energy #'s are not real indicative of killing animals. Most all the mono's will penetrate farther than c&c bullets, because they don't expand as much.

 

[Southernfried]

Vortex optics has a pretty good, recent video on copper performance out of the 308 and other calibers. Pretty good series, and one theory they have preached with copper, instead of energy use the cartridges velocity to learn your min/max yardages. They even suggested 1800-2000 fps for adequate expansion, and I also think Hornady suggests the same thing or close to it.

 

[hiker270]

The Tikka t3x superlite in 300 mag will be a shoulder punisher. I have a Tikka 300 mag and a 30-06 superlite. The 300 mag is my favorite elk rifle. My favorite elk loads are 180 TTSX or a 180 Accubond with Alliant Reloder 23 powder. Either bullet will shoot well under MOA and have performed outstanding on elk.

 

[Flyjunky]

Vortex optics has a pretty good, recent video on copper performance out of the 308 and other calibers. Pretty good series, and one theory they have preached with copper, instead of energy use the cartridges velocity to learn your min/max yardages. They even suggested 1800-2000 fps for adequate expansion, and I also think Hornady suggests the same thing or close to it.

I’d agree with that but caution that what the bullet manufacturers consider adequate expansion and my definition are not close.

If I was to ever shoot copper again ( very unlikely ) I would consider 2000-2200 minimal impact velocity. Look up photos of Barnes expansion at different velocities. Minimal tip deformation at 1800 is NOT expansion in my book.

 

[hiker270]

I’d agree with that but caution that what the bullet manufacturers consider adequate expansion and my definition are not close.

If I was to ever shoot copper again ( very unlikely ) I would consider 2000-2200 minimal impact velocity. Look up photos of Barnes expansion at different velocities. Minimal tip deformation at 1800 is NOT expansion in my book.

I would agree that 2000 fps should be a minimum for proper expansion of copper bullets.

 

[sawatch]

Thanks for all the replies folks, lots of good intel here. I couldn't find the video @Southernfried mentioned on Vortex's YT page, but I did watch the meat eater video were they tested some bullets. I'm also using this data sheet from Barnes for most of my numbers. Looking at fps instead of ft/lbs at 300y/400y, here's what I get:

150 TTSX BT
308: 2295/2111fps
7mm rem mag: 2448/2261fps
300wm: 2600/2393fps

that's only 132fps difference between the 7mm and the 300 and 150fps between the 308 and 7mm.

Here's a photo of Nosler's Etip non lead bullet in 7mm at various velocities. Looking at that I wouldn't feel comfortable with much less than the 2600fps, though I wish they showed it at 2200 and/or 2400fps too.

Seems like if velocity is the main factor and the 2000-2200fps is the floor, then either 7mm or 300 will get me there.

 

[sawatch]

The Tikka t3x superlite in 300 mag will be a shoulder punisher. I have a Tikka 300 mag and a 30-06 superlite. The 300 mag is my favorite elk rifle. My favorite elk loads are 180 TTSX or a 180 Accubond with Alliant Reloder 23 powder. Either bullet will shoot well under MOA and have performed outstanding on elk.

Any reason you wouldn't look at the tikka again for the 300wm? I've been really happy with my 308 T3x Superlight.

 

[TaperPin]

Yes to both/either cartridges. You can’t go wrong. It sounds as If you like the 30 caliber - one of the most popular long range elk guns out there. Recoil of the various 300s is noticeably greater than the 7 mag, so in a lightweight gun I‘ve stopped at 7 mag and larger calibers have to have more weight to them or I notice recoil when hunting.

 

[rootacres]

For what it’s worth. My dad has a 300 WM Tikka T3X Lite. He has taken that everywhere out of preference. On this most recent hunt he left his 300 WBY Mag Mark V in the safe. That Tikka with the 180gr Barnes ammo has rocked everything he’s shot. No animals from deer to elk have made it more than a few steps.

I’ve noticed when hunting with monos to start shooting into the shoulders. Hitting something hard seems to allow the TTSX to really mess stuff up.

I’ve also noticed the 185gr Berger Classic Hunter out of my brothers 300 WM to really mess stuff up. Basically the bullet will penetrate a few inches and then break up. It made a mess of the vitals of an elk we were going after.

 

[Marshfly]

If you insist on using copper and handicapping your rifles ability to kill animals, you need to be shooting the lightest bullet possible so it stays as fast as possible and has a fighting chance of expanding. Forget that old wives tale about 1500ftlb of energy and focus on speed and speed alone. Ignore everything but speed.


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[jimh406]

From what I understand, the recommended velocity for the Barnes LRX is lower than their other bullets. Some have said 1600 fps. Maximizing the barrel length and/or reloading could also get you more velocity no matter which caliber you decide to use.

 

[amassi]

From what I understand, the recommended velocity for the Barnes LRX is lower than their other bullets. Some have said 1600 fps. Maximizing the barrel length and/or reloading could also get you more velocity no matter which caliber you decide to use.

At 1600 fps the lrx won’t even open to caliber size


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[2-Stix]

There are threads on Rok that talk about how bad monos work. ELDm or x or the TMK's. I am stuck with coppers and I wish I wasn't. Mono pencils through. I have shot 6 bucks with monos and they all ran about 30-40 yards and dropped...but none the less...pencil through with a 1" wound channel. Happened last week yet again.

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[z987k]

Thanks for all the replies folks, lots of good intel here. I couldn't find the video @Southernfried mentioned on Vortex's YT page, but I did watch the meat eater video were they tested some bullets. I'm also using this data sheet from Barnes for most of my numbers. Looking at fps instead of ft/lbs at 300y/400y, here's what I get:

150 TTSX BT
308: 2295/2111fps
7mm rem mag: 2448/2261fps
300wm: 2600/2393fps

that's only 132fps difference between the 7mm and the 300 and 150fps between the 308 and 7mm.

Here's a photo of Nosler's Etip non lead bullet in 7mm at various velocities. Looking at that I wouldn't feel comfortable with much less than the 2600fps, though I wish they showed it at 2200 and/or 2400fps too.

Seems like if velocity is the main factor and the 2000-2200fps is the floor, then either 7mm or 300 will get me there.

Look at the 150gr Badlands 308 for your 308 win. I think you'll have everything you need and not need a new gun or a bunch more recoil. It'll retain a LOT more velocity than the ttsx, lrx or hammer, extending your range for hunting with a mono.
2424/2262 (300/400y), beating out your 7rm with a lot less recoil.

 

[Osteodoc08]

Nothing wrong with a 150-165gr Partition to do the work you described. If wanting an excuse for a new rifle, I'd do the 300 WM in a moderate (7-8#) rifle of the two you listed.

If open to different cartridges, perhaps the 7mm PRC would be a good choice.

 

[jeffpenland123]

I'm looking to get something bigger than my 308 (tikka T3x Superlite) for big game hunting in the rockies/western US. I'm shooting 150g Barnes TTSX BT's and I'm concerned about the lack of expansion at distances greater than 300 on the copper bullets. Last year I shot and killed a bull elk and mule deer buck at 320 and 350-400 respectively, and my exit wounds were tiny. My shot placement was good...bull dead in tracks with one shot and deer dead in two with only 50yards of movement...but when I backtrailed the deer the blood trail was minimal and the exit wound was only slightly bigger than the entry wound. Makes me nervous. I know this is always an issue with nonlead bullets. In talking to Barnes and watching some independent tests, it seems like it's really just about increasing the energy at the point of impact to ensure adequate (or better) expansion. Looking at my hunting areas and shooting abilities, that mean's shooting <450 yards. So with all that in mind, I've found myself looking at two calibers: 300wm and 7mm rem mag.

I'm torn because 300wm is more versatile than the other (more bullet weights, can reuse reloading stuff with my 308) but it also packs more of a recoil punch. The 7mm rem mag has ~25% less recoil but in the Barnes TTSX 150g it has 250ftlbs less at 300 yards than the 300wm.

As a reference point, here's the energy data from Barnes (all 150g TTSX BT) at 300/400y:

308: 2062/1755
7mm rem mag: 2326/1996
300wm: 2643/2252

I'm also not married to Barnes bullets, but I don't want to hunt with lead. In my 308 the barnes just shot the best and had good reviews. I've tried Nosler Expansion tips, Hornaday CX, and Federal Trophy Copper. Haven't tried hammer bullets yet but would like too. Currently I'm leaning 300wm (likely in the tikka t3x superlite again), but I'm also looking at the Kimber Montana and the Seekins PH2.

I know a lot of this is subjective, but curious what folks think between the two. Hit me with your two cents. Also, I've never failed to kill or recover an animal with the 308 150g Barnes...just trying to be proactive.

get you a weatherby vanguard with a muzzle break chambred in 300 weatherby mag it drops 22.4 inches at 500 yards and 8.4 at 400 if you zero at 300 i do not shoot past 250 yards zero how the box says says shoot four deer three was at one hundred one was at 40 all hit perfect it kicks more than the 300 win mag but it drops less 500 more foot pounds of energy 400 fps more buy it once and be done.energy at 500 hundred is 2186 velocity is close to 2200 better than the rem mag better than the win mag.nothing shoot flatter hit harder or is more accurate weatherby