Operation AZ elk drop'er

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

those hammers look interesting. Expensive though! Lol. I bet they shoot awesome. A machined piece of copper is probably more consistent then anything with lead. I'm not gonna lie though. I like the way lead hits. I've killed 2 antelope and a couple of deer with Barnes 85 gr tsx out of a 243 wssm. They died. Penetration was always complete even at 350-400 yds. But lead killed better. I had one zombie buck with them. A lead bullet wouldve done better (neck shot). I'm sure the fragmenting petals help with that. But it seems to me that you lose the benefit of going all copper (weight retention and superior penetration).

Yep spendy but they appear like they are gonna shoot well and once I get my dope dialed I won’t shoot a ton of them as I am working a target/play load up as well. I will certainly shoot some of the hammers when out to confirm dope still, just not all day long. My personal experience <700yd is I can’t imagine lead making a bit of difference but I keep my velocity up and do not shoot rear lungs with monos. 3elk, 2deer, 6+ antelope have either dropped in their tracks or within 20yd to the 145lrx out of my 280AI, zero lost animals. That said at 700yd plus (for the calibers I shoot) I think fragmenting lead will work better so just depends on your caliber and typical hunting distance. Can’t speak to the leathality of the hammers yet but I expect they will perform on par or better than the Barnes, tbd on that but pleased so far on paper.

Monos aren’t for everyone or every situation, it’s just my personal preference is to use them where possible as long as I am getting good results and at the mentioned range limitations/shot placement I have full confidence in my loads with monos.

 

[schmidty3]

Can you comment on the penetration of the hammers? The biggest selling feature of the monometal bullets is the penetration in my eyes. It's gonna make it through bones, that hard quartering too or away shot isn't going to be a problem. And you can feel better about attempting to pin the shoulders to compare mobility. I've always seen them as a good option for heavy for caliber game, and light for caliber bullets pushed very fast.

I don't like having the potential of a bullet splashing. Like I mentioned earlier, my dad splashed 2 accubond LR s on a bulls shoulders at 100 yards. I told him not to use those, but the gun counter guy said those were the best and they were the most expensive. And I'm the know it all son, so don't listen to me. At the end he was like "it's dead isn't it?". F me, there wasn't any damage in the chest cavity, I think it died of a heart attack.
I think it's fair to say Bergers reset the benchmark for BC in bullets. But I could see those splashing as well. I think slow and heavy would be ideal for those. The 230 gr Bullets are favored in some circles. Wind drift would be minimal. MV of 2700 fps would likely not splash. If I go 300 mag I'd probably try them out.


With all that said. Just from an engineering perspective (combined with my experiences). Partitions are king, but the BC sucks. The Federal trophy bonded Tipped and TLR look like a great compromise. Lead in front, solid copper base. Decent BC (assumedly, they are shaped nicely). Accubonds seem ok, but a splash is potentially possible. A heavy for cal bullet a bit slower would be better for those i think.

 

[schmidty3]

Any one of, the 3 Rifles you mentioned will kill an Elk with proper Bullet placement from, 400 yds for the .308 to 700+ yds for the 7mm Mag. and you said you're a "Shooter" so pick the ONE that, you shoot best and have confidence in ( you've read all the pros/cons on, each Caliber) so pick one that's easy, to carry/ shoot and HIKE for miles with. Then, lets get serious and realize WHAT this, Hunt is all about it's, FINDING the Animals ! The success rate has been very high in that unit recently, from 80 to 100 percent ! But YOU have to figure out, WHERE their hiding! Try calling AZ F& Game (Wardens & Bio's) and check on ArizCoueswhitetail.com for approx. locations of Elk. You will need a partner that, is trustworthy, can walk with you and is nearly as strong as you, to carry out the meat! I am 71 years old, I can carry a front quarter and Backstrap's about, 40-50 lbs max. uphill, my son at 41 y/o, can carry, a rear quarter + loose meat or, the rack (to 75/85 lbs). We plan on hunting with GOOD Packs, on our backs, for my Rifle Elk Hunt and making only 2 trips to Camp since we may be, anywhere from 1 to 5 miles out when, an elk is shot. Since the R snakes, probably have NOT, denned up yet, BUY some Snake Boots/Chaps for that lower area, you're hunting at that, time of year and bring lots of, Water, paracord, game bags and 2 sharp knives.
You have many good suggestions to choose from, as lots of, knowledgeable, experienced, Hunters here, so sift thru the idea's you like and pick out what you need and is important. Good luck !

Thanks for the reply. I don't know if I'll be too worried about snakes. I'll just be cogniscent that they are around. I've been in snakey snakey areas and never had too much of a scare. I might even try to get one or two if I run across them for bowskins.

As far as the hunt stuff. I didn't exactly come to the rokslide firearm forum for unit or elk hunting advice. I went to the Arizona hunting today forum for that. Strategies are already in place. I've still got a lot of other research to do in other places.

 

[schmidty3]

The .280AI used to be one of those dream calibers when I was younger that I "had" to have one day. Now that I am starting back into gun nuttery after a bit of a layoff (still mostly a bowhunter though) I see that with Alliant RL26 or superformance ammo there is very little with a 150gr bullet that a 280AI can do that a .270 won't. Maybe a bit on paper but little in the real world. With a good load of RL26 you can get a 150gr Accubond or Accubond LR to close to 3050. That is moving out of a .270 with the ability to find ammo about anywhere if you need it.

Still though for a dedicated elk rifle a 7mm Mag (of any sort) is hard to beat. 30 years ago I would of sworn that a .300 of some iteration would be the perfect choice for the king of deer but now I would say that the 7mm is just about the perfect pick in a lighter weight rifle.

A light weight 26" tubed 280 would be a sexy thing. But it's just trying to be a 7mag. The logistics on the 7mag are much easier, and you can always download to 280 levels if recoil becomes a problem (or load some blistering lighter bullets. We've loaded some 120 gr ballistic tips in my dad's and those things kill deer and antelope like a lightning bolt with very low recoil.)

 

[4IDARCHER]

The 7 mags are extremely useful versatile calibers that like you said can be loaded down if need be. They also have the ability to shoot heavy for caliber bullets at useful velocities. It would be hard to go wrong with the classic 7 Rem mag, and propellants have also gotten incredibly efficient now make these calibers even better.
Hard to go wrong with one of the newer federal bullets or the Accubond or any of the Barnes. I will go against the grain and say that despite the extremely high B.C. Berger I just never completely trust a bullet that was first designed for accuracy and then terminal performance second. I think that IF you can find any a 154gr Interbond might just be the perfect combo of flat/hard hitting in the 7 mags. Good luck on finding that perfect setup.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Can you comment on the penetration of the hammers?

I am just working up a load in the hammers so no game taken yet but I chatted quite a bit with the manufacturer requesting info before deciding to go with them and which model. The performance of the hammer hunters sounds very comparable to my experiences with barnes (which is that in the ranges/velocities I'm shooting they pass through) with the added in theory (until I see for myself) perk that the petals shear clear at lower velocities still. The barnes peel back and have a somewhat rounded front so at lower velocity they don't create as aggressive of a "snow plow" effect but work fine if you keep the velocity up. The hammers will sheer petals and have a flat front shank going through in all cases which will create the perpendicular trauma forming the wound channel, the petals radiating out do secondary damage. They have another model coming out that will shed more weight in the pedals and create a more aggressive wound channel but you sacrifice how far the remaining shank will penetrate, I opted to go for the hunters.

As noted my personal preference at medium range (<700) is I like monos, I keep the velocity up and I do not shoot areas were monos won't perform well but fragmenting will. Typically I aim for the heart/arterial bundle on the front/top of the heart and if needed depending on the angle of the animal I know the bullet will dissect that line through the animal regardless of what it has to go through (for the most part, there are always exceptions). Sometimes I shoot high shoulder and yes animals drop. The meat loss with monos even when they go through a shoulder is typically a 2" diameter in my experience (and I know there isn't embedded lead on the fringes) where as before I switched I've had lead core bullets really chew things up if they hit a shoulder.

Those are just my experiences/preferences. At true long range I would go fragmenting lead though and my target load will be of that nature incase I ever need to grab those instead for a shot (trying the 208eldm first, 215 berger will be next I think).

 

[Boreal]

Can you comment on the penetration of the hammers? .

All I’ve got is two elk to speak from, so not a huge sample size. Shots were from 70-100 yards from my 280ai, both animals quartering slightly away. The bullets struck middle rib area on both animals. The lungs in both were jelly, and the exit wounds were about racquetball size. Took out parts of two ribs on the way out on the cow. Wasn’t able to really examine the bull, we were in something of a rush because of the bears. But no penetration issues that I can speak to on two full size Roosevelt elk.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[calico pig]

So I unexpectedly got drawn for a limited opportunity AZ elk hunt with 0 points as a non res... But I don't have an ideal elk shooting iron...I know, I know, what a terrible problem to have!

I've got a lot of thoughts, so I'll try to keep the variables organized.... (cough...long post ahead )

Bullets:

So the goal is to get a new elk shooter. I think the ideal way to approach this is to work from the terminal end back.

Looking at the maps it looks like I could potentially call one in to within <50 yards in the thick stuff (did I mention it was in the rut ), or I may end up shooting cross canyon. So a bullet that could do both is in order.

Looking at the available elk worthy pills I think a heavy 7mm or 30 cal. bullet is called for.

7mm:

160 gr accubond (not long ranges, i've seen those splash on an elk shoulder at ~100-150 yards)
160 gr partition
175 gr partition
Some sort of barnes
180 gr berger
195 gr berger
160 gr Fed trophy bonded tipped
155 gr Fed TLR

30 cal:

200 gr accubond
200 gr partition
200 gr Fed TLR
210,215,230 berger

I like the design of the partition, but its not ideal at longer ranges. The Accubonds look like a decent option. Not a huge fan of barnes, but they do penetrate well. The new federal bullets look like a really good compromise between weight retention and opening at long range. Bergers have great ballistics, Ive killed one WT doe with a 7.5x55 with 175 gr bergers with a ~2500 fps muzzle velocity and it was bad news, but I have concerns with penetration on bigger critters and higher velocities under 100 yards.

As far as cartridges I think a 7mag or 300 win mag are the sensible options. (although a long barreled 280 AI does intrigue me, and a 30-06 is just a classic).


A short digression:

I do have several potentially suitable guns available to me. So this is a "want" (and ive got a bunch of other gear to get too...I need a pack and I need a rangefinder. Maybe a truck shell. Maybe a sleeping pad and bag...etc, so money will be tight).

The guns I have are a Browning BLR 308. tikka CTR 6.5 in a chassis (heavy PRS type setup). I could borrow a 270 rem 700 bdl or a Ruger 7mm mag with boat paddle stock. Of these the ruger is an obvious choice, but it is my dads, and I doubt it will stabilize anything over 160gr or so (but it could suffice), and it has a decent mid 90's leupy Vari-X 3, 3-9x40.


Back to the main discussion...

Optics:

As far as available optics, I have a leupy vx6 2-12 and a Athlon Cronus BTR 4.5-29 that I can repurpose. If I go leupy i'll get a CDS dial for it. And as a fyi the Cronus passed my box test on the tikka.

The choice of optic likely affects my comfortable range. I did some dry fire on some whitetails this weekend at ~850 yards. On 29x it seemed pretty doable, 12x would be tough but likely possible with practice. So if I go luepy it would likely be a 600 yd max, maybe 800 for the cronus (ignoring other variables at the moment). On the other end, i'm very comfortable shooting running critters at close to medium range with the leupy on 2x, 4.5x is a bit trickier under 50 yards. The optic also effects my overall weight. I believe the cronus is 1+lbs more then the leupy.

Terrain/Elevation/Bare Rifle Weight:

The elevation is roughly 6000 ft. I expect to have to cover a lot of ground being that there's not many elk in the unit. I don't think there's too much super nasty elevation changes unless I decide to cross some of the canyons. Id call the average terrain "moderately mountainous". That being said I think a bare rifle weight of 6-7.5 lbs is about right for this mission.

The standard elevation and load development will be done at 500-1000 ft asl.

Silencer/threaded barrel:

I've got a 30 cal thunderbeast ultra 9. I would like to be able to utilize it. I haven't fully read through the AZ regs, but I believe its ok to use. If not then I'd still like the capability to put it on. So a threaded barrel is a strong want, if not a need.

And for the record, I do like being able to hear the thump of the bullet hitting an animal, its a good indication of a hit.

Budget:

Probably around $1000 +/- a bit. Again, this is a want, not a need. And there's plenty of other things that I need/want for this trip. There's always the battle in my head between my engineering brain that appreciates awesome engineering, and the engineering part of my brain that appreciates efficiency. The efficiency side is winning. I foresee more bow hunts in the future. So I don't want to go crazy. A cooper or fierce does make me drool a little though

Build vs Buy:

Back to the efficiency brain. A turnkey option seems ideal for me at this time. Savages don't do it for me, but the performance is there. Apparently there's a switch barrel Howa option now which could be a good choice (mcgowen "howage"). A barreled action is like $300. A custom tikka would be the bee's knee's but the mag length is short for the magnums. I could maybe steal the rem 700 from my dad and build off of it.

However, time and tools are an issue.


Factory options:

It doesn't seem like theres a ton of options for faster twist 7mm's in a factory gun. The browning xbolt long range stands out. Many of the 300mags seem to have a 1-10" except the tikka (to my knowledge). I do not want to single feed rounds FYI.

~$1000 or less options:

Kimber: I've lusted after a 280 AI Montana, but the barrel was a touch short and the twist was wrong. Looks like a 300 mag Montana has a lot of the features im looking for, however kimber has developed a dubious reputation for accuracy and QC.

Browning: The Browning hells canyon speed or long range look like an awesome choice. 26" barrels. I fondled each and I liked the way the stock fit, the action feels good, and I liked the 60 deg bolt. I think I liked the speed the most due to the lighter weight.

A more sensible option is just a long range stalker at ~$800. But im not sure what the twist rate is. Brownings website doesn't match on some of the rates of twists.

I saw a note that said that browning was increasing the rate of twists on the long range models. The hells canyon long range I fondled in 7 mag had a 1-8". The Speed was unmarked but the website says 1-9.5" which may be a bit slow for the heavies.
But in a 300 mag the speed has a 1-10", which should stabilize the heavy bergers If my research is correct.

The con on the speed is that the threads on the muzzle are non-standard and I would need an adapter. I'll probably ask thunderbeast if they could make a brake in the different thread, or if they felt it was safe to run the adapter). The Pro of the speed is the weight, With the thunderbeast it would be about the same weight as the bare long range.

So a 300 mag hells canyon speed is likely my frontrunner. I do have concerns about the longevity of the plastic duratouch stock. But McMillan has a replacement should I feel the need in the future.

No accuracy guarantee

Christiansen Mesa:

A bit above my price range, but I could swing it. A lot of good features on paper. A good name, sub moa guarantee. Remington footprint so a lively aftermarket. Decent weight. I've handled them in the past. Honestly I didn't think the action was worthy of $2k+ (tikka has me spoiled), but in the mesa it is about right. (I also don't know what im talking about! lol).

Anybody have any experience with the stock? is it a solid composite or plastic?

I have not fondled the mesa. Anyone know a store in dallas that has one?

Tikka/Sako:

From what Ive read its not worth going with a sako over a Tikka. If they had a solid composite stocked version for $1K-1200... maybe.

Tikkas are gauranteed shooters. The twist rate and short mag are limiting but I can maybe get over that since they are such a value. The stock isn't optimal but usable and replaceable while staying under $1100 or so. Or just leave it and rock it as is. (I do like my tikka a lot).

Would a 300 mag tikka stabilize 200 gr bullets with a 1-11" twist? What grain bullet would the 7mag with a 1-9.5" be capable of stabilizing.

Howa:
The first lite looks good but im uneducated on them. Sub-moa.

Bergara:
The ridge has a lot of good features, its just heavy .... sub-moa.

And lastly..."The Shooter"

A 28 yr old, short for his weight at 5'8". Male. Mecahnical Engineer. Slightly overconfident when it comes to shooting, but terrible with women. Damned good with a shot gun. Damned good at high pressure fast developing shot opportunities with a rifle. Thinks that rifle hunting is boring and prefers his recurve but has never hunted elk and wants to kill one. lol.

Has reloading experience and the equipment.

Not a lot of long range experience. Not a lot of wind doping experience (I do have ballistic arc and the associated cheapo wind meter). I've taken my tikka 6.5 creedmoor to ~600 yards but haven't gone further yet. My "range" at the farm is about 600. I could maybe stretch it out to 800 but need to do some figur'ating on the angles.

I plan to go to some longer ranges at some point.

Likely plan would be to do a full load development. Then most likely i'll get in 100 or so rounds or practice. Then go kill things.

Concluding Thoughts:

So with all that said. Can anyone add or subtract from my list of variables?

I'm currently leaning towards the 300 mag hells canyon speed with either the leupy for a moderate and sensible ~600 yard gun. OR go all out on the optic and pair either the speed or the long range with the Cronus. If I go with the long range the 7mag may be a good option with the 1-8" twist and higher BC bullets. But a 200+ gr slug out of a 300mag has some perks on elk. The speed throwing the 230 gr bergers would probably do some damage. The high mass weight and lower velocity ease some of my fears on a close shot. And the 26" barrel seems nifty.

The Mesa in 300 mag is a close runner up (but a budget stretch). I think its long term durability and upgradeability will be easier to work with. I don't know if i'll shoot enough to burn out a barrel, but a 700 action would be preferable to the browning in that regard. The 24" barrel isn't exactly what I want, but I am putting a silencer on it, so its gonna be a long beast even with a 24". However, the 90 degree bolt throw is not as sexy! lol.

The tikka is the most sensible option. Just get one and use it as is for this one hunt. Deal with the slower twist rate by shooting slightly lighter bullets.

Or I just save my money, load up some 160 gr accubonds or federals and use the Old Ruger.


Anyone have some other insights or concerns?

Thanks

I have a Sako 85 Finnlight long action. Personally I'd pull that off your short list. The ejector sits at 6 O'clock and shoots the spent brass straight up into the scope. It then falls back down backwards into the action 20% of the time. Also the twist rates are slow for 30's running the loads you mentioned. I also have the browning but in the stainless stalker (same action). I'm not enamored with that rifle and it doesn't even wear a scope anymore. I'd go tikka all day before I bought another browning rifle. My 2 cents, probably worth about that.

 

[Dhicklin]

I live in 24a and know a few things about that tag. If you would like to chat send me a pm! Good luck. I know people in my town who drool over the tag you just got. I’ve seen a few 350 class bulls taken. The terrain is decieving on google earth. “The mountains aren’t very tall but the canyons go straight to hell” is one way I’ve heard it

 

[schmidty3]

I'll take any advice I can get! yeah... those canyons look deeeeep! I'm not sure how I feel about packing a elk out of a 1000 ft gain in 1/2 mile.

 

[pods8 (Rugged Stitching)]

Remember that box stepping recommendation above? The big ones like to hide in shitty places often.

 

[schmidty3]

Lol. The good news is... if he does decide to die in the bottom of a canyon. Maybe there will be a cool stream that I can cool the meat in and give me some more time to haul it out.

 

[schmidty3]

And gun update...

I'm kind of leaning towards a tikka. I really like the one I have. Plus I found a place that has some closeout prices on the old t3 model. 30-06 for $420. Stainless 30-06 for $470. Blued 300 mag for $520.

I could take the stock gun, see how it shoots as is. If I'm happy then I'll just leave it alone. If i like how it shoots, ill just get the barrel threaded. If I don't like the stock, maybe get a stockys carbon fiber cuz it's cool, or I I want a little more weight or different ergos then a mcmillan.

If I don't like how it shoots then I could rebarrel it. It appears that a barrel nut system barrel that 26", threaded and fluted will run around $600.

Then there's some other little upgrades I could play with here and there if I get bored in the next few years.

Long story short it would give me an elk worthy rifle now. And when funds allow in the next several years it give a me a tinkering project.

Barrel upgrade path (if needed)

So a 30-06 will most likely do whatever I need to do. However if I decide to play with it , the logical option on a new barrel would be a 26" 280ai. Since It has some xfactor in my eyes. I don't think there's a higher performance semi-standard .284 that fits on a standard bolt face. A 280Ai would be manageable on recoil and I could keep the gun on the lighter side.

Or I could go magnum, start with a 7mm or 300 win mag. Get the magnum bolt face. Then pic whatever magnum I want to build to. I'd like to shoot the highest BC bullets so wind drifts are easier. The magnums can push those. Either a 7mag, 300 wsm (fits the tikka mag length better), or a 300 mag. If I go this route I'll likely need some new bottom metal. There's some options that use aics mags and give you a bit longer OAL then the standard tikka mags. And If I go this route id probably go for a moderate weight rifle. This would be a fun longer range project. But I don't shoot really far that often.

 

[Gorp2007]

As a guy who bought a Tikka T3 in 30-06 for elk, I think you've displayed great wisdom and impeccable taste.