Snakebit dog - vaccine PSA

[Dos Perros]

Have received covid vaccines as well as boosters.

 

[jmez]

I'm a veterinarian, live in western SD. Have any run GSP's all year round. I don't vaccinate my dogs.

I treat a lot of horses with snakebites. 2 last week. There are levels of envenomnation. For those that had dogs get bit that were normal the next day, the snake bit the dog and didn't envenomnate. This is actually the most common bite. Little pain, reaction, or swelling. They get better quickly despite how you treat them.

If your dog takes a full load, vaccinated or not, they are in trouble. This is generally early spring and late fall. Most bites in the summer aren't bad.

I'll treat around 30 horses a year on average. Severe bites in horses generally require a tracheostomy as they are obligated nasal breathers, nasal swelling suffocates them. About 1 per year will require a tracheostomy and extended treatment. Anti inflammatories, are the mainstay of treatment, you can't afford anti venin on horses. I don't give many of them antibiotics.

There is no evidence that the vaccines work. I try to practice evidence based medicine. I'll use and recommend your product if you can prove it works. A bunch of dog owners and vets saying it works is not evidence. Correlation does not equal causation. That also includes claims by trainers that the vaccine killed their dogs.

I also don't carry any benedryl with me. There is no medical reason to administer benedryl in a snakebite. It is not a histamine mediated reaction. The only reason it is used a long with a bunch of other "treatments" is because of humans innate reaction to " have to do something." A lot of veterinarians as well as physicians subscribe to that theory, even though they know and have been taught different.



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[Dos Perros]

I was told that Benedryl would lower metabolism, and slow down whatever bad stuff was happening before you can get to a vet.

 

[jmez]

Benadryl prevents histamine release. It doesn't slow down the basal metabolic rate. Veterinarians and physicians are not immune to making shit up .

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[Dos Perros]

I wouldn't swear it was a vet/doc that told me that, likely a dog guy.

Doesn't benedryl make kids sleepy tho?

 

[*zap*]

I'm a veterinarian, live in western SD. Have any run GSP's all year round. I don't vaccinate my dogs.

I treat a lot of horses with snakebites. 2 last week. There are levels of envenomnation. For those that had dogs get bit that were normal the next day, the snake bit the dog and didn't envenomnate. This is actually the most common bite. Little pain, reaction, or swelling. They get better quickly despite how you treat them.

If your dog takes a full load, vaccinated or not, they are in trouble. This is generally early spring and late fall. Most bites in the summer aren't bad.

I'll treat around 30 horses a year on average. Severe bites in horses generally require a tracheostomy as they are obligated nasal breathers, nasal swelling suffocates them. About 1 per year will require a tracheostomy and extended treatment. Anti inflammatories, are the mainstay of treatment, you can't afford anti venin on horses. I don't give many of them antibiotics.

There is no evidence that the vaccines work. I try to practice evidence based medicine. I'll use and recommend your product if you can prove it works. A bunch of dog owners and vets saying it works is not evidence. Correlation does not equal causation. That also includes claims by trainers that the vaccine killed their dogs.

I also don't carry any benedryl with me. There is no medical reason to administer benedryl in a snakebite. It is not a histamine mediated reaction. The only reason it is used a long with a bunch of other "treatments" is because of humans innate reaction to " have to do something." A lot of veterinarians as well as physicians subscribe to that theory, even though they know and have been taught different.



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Thanks for your input. How about a list of what a normal person can do for a snakebit dog. thanks.

 

[jmez]

I'm sure it was a vet or doc that told you that. They made it up. Drowsiness is a direct affect of histamine blocking in the brain. Has nothing to do with metabolism, but it sounds good.

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[Marbles]

Interesting discussion.

Joke first, this story proves that the vaccine causes snakebites.

Back to being serious. Prophylactic antibiotics are not recommend in human snake bites. This is supported by WMS guidelines on page 6 of of the PDF (labeled page 479 of the journal). Feel free to consult their references for more information. Guidelines was published in 2015, so there could be newer information. https://www.wemjournal.org/article/S1080-6032(15)00220-3/fulltext

Antibiotics can cause real harm, using them is predominantly risk based on the current evidence.

Benadryl can make hypotension worse as well as other side effects. Second generation antihistamines are the better choice in humans as they work better and have fewer side effects.

Antihistamines are not for the snakebites, but used along with other medications to treat reactions to the antivenin in humans.

The vaccine successfully produces antibodies that inactivate the venom from multiple crotalids. Antivenin is antibodies to the venom. Prior venom exposure causes the development of antibodies. There is poor data on the antibody titer caused by vaccination, but in horses vaccination results in lower titers than prior bits. Bitten horses had toters several times higher than none bitten horses. 28% had no response to the vaccine. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3647753/

It is possible the vaccine generates an insufficient titer to provide much benefit, the current data is not clear however. Which, makes both positions reasonable. The greatest potential harm of the vaccine is likely a failure to initiate antivenin due to a false idea of being protected. However, it is not possible, based on current data, to say the vaccine has more risk than benefit.

 

[Coopsdaddy]

I have heard there are some new things on the horizon for snake bites for us,im sure hopefull.

 

[Pikespeak]

My pointer got snakebit last night, diamondback. Not a baby, but not a monster at 2ft, so a bit lucky there. He had just gotten round one of the rattlesnake vaccine last week, very cheap shot at $25, and buys them more time after a bite. I’m sure a vet will jump on and can elaborate on that a bit.

But it’s a two shot series, so he hadn’t had the 2nd yet. Thanks fully our new vet is awesome, he called back at 11pm at night (dog went out to pee) and said he was rushing to the shop. Got him the antivenin started within an hour of the bit and as of this morning, swelling is down a bit, he was hungry as a horse (good sign) and he’s home to rest. Outlook is good and we think due to a combo of the starter does of the vaccine and the quick administration of the antivenin.

Just a PSA for snake training AND the vaccine…and to know which vets (hopefully yours) will respond in an emergency. The local “animal ER” told us 4-6 hours, I had a non-PG response to that I will not post on here.

Stay safe this summer…and your pups too!

City ER vets and City vets in general are worthless. They are more sales orgs than actual vets.

My dog had a prostate infection that almost killed him. Left him overnight at the Evergreen Animal Hospital in CO, came to check on him in the AM and he was pissing blood and barely could walk. Went inside and asked them how the hell they didnt notice he was now pissing/dribbling blood and why was I paying them to watch if they aren't even paying attention? Then the doozy, they said that he had reached a point that they didnt have the facilities to help him even though they market themselves as a "Hospital" and didnt inform me the night before that if he did get worse they couldn't do anything for him. Then because I already had my dog, I turned and walked out and they tried to tell me I couldn't leave with out paying them in front of a lobby full of people. I then loudly told them what they had just done so everyone could hear and told them to try and stop me. They then said they wouldn't give me my antibiotics back that I had already bought from the previous vet I saw before they claimed they were equipped to help.

It took 6 weeks for my dog to recover and about 6k in bills and meds from an actual vet hospital. That other vet called me once to try and get me to pay and I got the highest person I could on the phone and I told them that if they ever called me again or something ended up on my credit I was willing to use a years worth of wages to bury them in court and to try me. Never heard from them again.

 

[jmez]

Thanks for your input. How about a list of what a normal person can do for a snakebit dog. thanks.

Kind of the same as they recommend for people.
Keep the dog quiet, if you are out for a hike carry the dog back to the car. Monitor bite site closely for swelling. Ice at the bite site.
Go to the vet sooner rather than later. If you are getting a lot of swelling quickly it is a problem and urgent, not a dry bite. Decide before your dogs gets bit whether or not you are going to pay for antivenin treatment. If so get them in and do it immediately, the quicker the better.

 

[Lytro]

We hunt in Diamondback territory

There aren't any diamondback rattlesnakes in SD. Thankfully lol

 

[Fatcamp]

There aren't any diamondback rattlesnakes in SD. Thankfully lol

No shit! I just assumed they were, and never take the time to do much other than run away.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Avoidance training is the best way to go to be sure. I know a few people down here that have/had hog dog hunting groups and their dogs get hit somewhat frequently it seems. When my 10 year old Lab got popped at camp this spring I called a friend up, he said the only dogs he's ever seen (referenced dozens) that died were left with their collars on. I'd already dropped my old girl off at the vet, called them up and asked if they'd removed her collar and they hadn't, she was put up in a kennel on antivenin drip and sedated with the collar ON. They went ahead and removed it, and the next day when I picked her up her throat had loose skin that looked like Droopy the cartoon dog, her neck absolutely swelled up like crazy overnight. I fully believe he saved my dog's life with that tip.

Here's a shot of my baby on the boat while wife was getting the truck. Camp is across the bay, had to launch the boat to get back across, we just let it float at the ramp while we ran to the vet an hour drive away. You never know when these damned things will show up, wife was grilling us up lunch on the charcoal grill and the dog jumped up and went behind her, yelped, then the snake rattled and all hell broke loose. Snake was headed for cover under the pit, I had to flip it over to get to him. Very good chance wife gets bit if the dog didn't intervene, only wish she'd have barked instead of sniffed. They say the snout is the best place to get hit. Poor dog had puss and blood oozing out of the nostrils within about 10 minutes from the bite.

 

[Fatcamp]

For any of our SD members. Signed our dog up for both.

See rattlesnakes pretty regularly and last archery season I saw an enormous porcupine right by camp. Dog got skunk avoidance training the next morning. LOL He was so embarrassed.

 

[FatCampzWife]

View attachment 578727

For any of our SD members. Signed our dog up for both.

See rattlesnakes pretty regularly and last archery season I saw an enormous porcupine right by camp. Dog got skunk avoidance training the next morning. LOL He was so embarrassed.

Aforementioned embarrassed dog, marinating in his baking soda/hydrogen peroxide/Dawn detergent skunk smell remover (worked great, BTW)...

 

[ScreamingPotato]

Aforementioned embarrassed dog, marinating in his baking soda/hydrogen peroxide/Dawn detergent skunk smell remover (worked great, BTW)...

Lol he looks disgruntled.

 

[ljwhitetailer]

Wow that's a scary situation. Glad to hear he's on the mend.

 

[KurtR]

Porcupines are on the kill with extreme prejudice list. First black dog got a face full and was going in for seconds if i didnt grab him. Seems to be a bumper crop just west of the river this year

 

[Fatcamp]

Porcupines are on the kill with extreme prejudice list. First black dog got a face full and was going in for seconds if i didnt grab him. Seems to be a bumper crop just west of the river this year

I will keep that in mind. The one I saw last year was a long way from a tree.