Tuning epiphany

[shoeshineman]

Howdy all!

I bought a 35lb recurve to graduate from training wheels a few months ago. I've been shooting the 500 spine arrows with 5" turkey feathers, that the archery shop sold me with the bow, regularly and have gotten better over time. At 20 yards, I'm pretty regularly shooting 4-6" 3 arrow groups. I do ok at the local 3d course.

I've been getting interested in the whole super tuning world. I thought "I wonder what my bare shaft groups look like?" So, out comes the box cutter and goodbye to feathers. OMG! These 500s are so stiff, I'm completely missing the entire target at 20 yards!

29" 500 spine
8.6 grain nock
22 grain insert
150 grain field point
---This thing is so crazy stiff

I work my way through field points from 200 grains all the way to 300 grains. 500 spine is still stiff with 300 grain field point. I've validated that my brace height is in spec.

I grab some 29" 600 spine and throw on the 300 grain field tip, still stiff!

I think I need a 700 spine arrow for this 35lb bow!

I think I have learned that big feathers can really hide some crazy spine issues. Am I going crazy or has anyone else seen this?

Thanks in advance!

 

[Wrench]

build the shelf out. Add a layer of velcro and if needed double sided tape under that.

If it is still showing stiff....it could be you.

Its tough to diagnose if form isn't bang on.

If building the shelf out works, use the spine calculator to do the math to get you close.....and start long, heavier than ideal and weak, you can always shorten and lighten.

 

[Beendare]

Yeah, Bareshaft tuning is an eye opener. The correct arrow spine is critical with these bows though my ILF bows have a pretty forgiving spine range.

The 'Training Wheels' cracks are uncalled for and from what I've seen are usually made by guys that are using a stickbow as an excuse not to shoot that good.

Its all archery....sure the degree of difficulty is higher with a stick....but its a divisive comment.

____

 

[North Idaho Stickbow]

I would think a 600 spine would be just fine, just don’t cut it down to 29” like your other ones. That’s a fairly short arrow, and you can get a significantly weaker spine with an extra inch of arrow one the end (plus more mass).

 

[Boxerboxer]

build the shelf out. Add a layer of velcro and if needed double sided tape under that.

If it is still showing stiff....it could be you.

Its tough to diagnose if form isn't bang on.

If building the shelf out works, use the spine calculator to do the math to get you close.....and start long, heavier than ideal and weak, you can always shorten and lighten.

Isn't building the shelf out the opposite of what you want when the arrow is too stiff already? If you build the shelf out you need an even more flexible arrow than you did before to get it to flex around the rest.

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[Wrench]

Isn't building the shelf out the opposite of what you want when the arrow is too stiff already? If you build the shelf out you need an even more flexible arrow than you did before to get it to flex around the rest.

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Holy smokes that was a dumber on my part.....you are exactly correct.

Sorry I was multitasking!

 

[sneaky]

Yeah, Bareshaft tuning is an eye opener. The correct arrow spine is critical with these bows though my ILF bows have a pretty forgiving spine range.

The 'Training Wheels' cracks are uncalled for and from what I've seen are usually made by guys that are using a stickbow as an excuse not to shoot that good.

Its all archery....sure the degree of difficulty is higher with a stick....but its a divisive comment.

____

I'll remember that the next time a compound guy says "oh,a recurve. You must not like killing stuff". Archers needle each other on all kinds of things. I don't think the training wheels comment is off base at all. I can say without a doubt I've met far more arrogant compound shooters than I ever have trad shooters, and it's not just a pure numbers thing. Lots of compound shooters are downright condescending towards trad bows and archers. I don't treat people badly, I treat them accordingly.

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[Boxerboxer]

Holy smokes that was a dumber on my part.....you are exactly correct.

Sorry I was multitasking!

It happens! I had to look it up in Shooting the Stickbow to make sure I wasn't going crazy

 

[Ddog]

Those 500s are way stiff for 35# as you've seen, save them for 45-55# with different tip weights. I'd go 700 at least and tune for slightly weak. Then fletch and fire away. The weight of the feathers will stiffen them up a bit for optimum flight.

 

[Wilderlife]

Be really sure of your form before you go too far with arrows, and make sure your arrows are in fact reading stiff.

What sort of target are you shooting into? My Rinehart is banged up and I was going off the way the arrows landed in it for a while, before I realised the inconsistency in the surface was making the arrows land in all sorts of stupid ways.

A messy release will also give you incorrect spine readings, especially when watching the arrow fly in slow motion.

I'm new to this stuff, but a 600 spine arrow with 300gn up front seems like it should definitely be too weak.

 

[R Davis]

Without knowing your draw length I’d say you might be getting a false stiff. A full length 600 with 100-125 would be pretty close at 35# depending on draw length. Tell us your draw and we might be able to help more. It’s pretty hard to get good results bareshaft tuning without pretty good repetitive form also.

I wouldn’t get too wrapped up in tuning if you’re hitting what you’re aiming at. I shoot all kinds of wacky tunes to get the arrow to hit where I want for 3d. Save the tuning for hunting setups.

I can get a full length 600 to fly pretty good from 36-37lbs at 28” draw with 100-120 heads on my wood ilf rig. The same arrow is way weak on my 39# barebow rig stringwalking. I have to go to 500’s for a decent tune there.

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

You're not crazy. I am shooting 45@32" with a Toelke Whip. I have full length Easton Axis Trad 600's with a Gold Tip stainless half outsert(100 grains? 75?) and 175 grain points. Bareshafts fly very well for me. different manufacturers ratings of spine will yield different results as well. From my understanding Eastons are on the stiffer side of things.

 

[sneaky]

You're not crazy. I am shooting 45@32" with a Toelke Whip. I have full length Easton Axis Trad 600's with a Gold Tip stainless half outsert(100 grains? 75?) and 175 grain points. Bareshafts fly very well for me. different manufacturers ratings of spine will yield different results as well. From my understanding Eastons are on the stiffer side of things.

I've noticed that the micros fly different than the .204s and the. 204s different than the standard diameter shafts. I've also noticed that the Beman MFX trad shafts fly way different than the Easton Axis trads do. The MFXs are my favorite arrow but they are extremely hard to find. Fly great, durable, and with a high GPI. I wish they would start making them again. The Axis trads tune different and are lighter. It can be exasperating at times trying to tune arrows from different manufacturers.

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[bjfoxhoven]

You're not crazy. I am shooting 45@32" with a Toelke Whip. I have full length Easton Axis Trad 600's with a Gold Tip stainless half outsert(100 grains? 75?) and 175 grain points. Bareshafts fly very well for me. different manufacturers ratings of spine will yield different results as well. From my understanding Eastons are on the stiffer side of things.

@Trumpkin The Dwarf , ive noticed this too. I can shoot full length 400 spine gold tips with ~ 160 up front and they bare shaft perfect. Well I got some 350 spine day six arrows with 200 up front and I was getting lot of tail low stuff (pretty sure just dynamic spine stuff readings) until I get the nock point around 3/4 high with 3 under. When I shoot the gold tip arrow at that nock point I get way tail high reading. I shoot 47 lb at 31” draw ILF recurve. Also, arent weaker spines needed for a more traditional long bow compared to a recurve or ILF set up regardless of shelf cut etc?

 

[Beendare]

You're not crazy. I am shooting 45@32" with a Toelke Whip.

A dwarf eh? Grin

____

 

[Beendare]

I've noticed that the micros fly different than the .204s and the. 204s different than the standard diameter shafts. I've also noticed that the Beman MFX trad shafts fly way different than the Easton Axis trads do. The MFXs are my favorite arrow but they are extremely hard to find. Fly great, durable, and with a high GPI. I wish they would start making them again. The Axis trads tune different and are lighter. It can be exasperating at times trying to tune arrows from different manufacturers.

Well said Sneaky^

I loved the Beman MFX's...and wish I would have known they were discontinuing them...I would have bought 10 dozen!
I still have a few stragglers........

 

[Trumpkin The Dwarf]

A dwarf eh? Grin

____

Hmm... I love some subtle humor! I stand 6'5". Also, the name is a character from a book.

 

[shoeshineman]

REPLIES TO PREVIOUS:
Yes, "training wheels" is just bantz. Back in the military days, this is what we did to each other to show we cared. ha!
Back when I was into USAC road bicycle racing (spandex warrior lance cheatstrong style) I had a homemade "cycling is a crime" sticker on my workstand. One of the guys that I trained with several times per week saw it and actually got angry at me. I"m like "are you serious?" Some just can't take the bantz. That's why its so funny.

My draw length is right about exactly 26.875 based on my limb clicker activation on my homemade draw scale. I just call it 27" to not sound so damn nerdy.



UPDATE:
I bolted on the 45# limbs (43# at 27" on my draw scale) and started working at 20 yards with different points.

300 grains up front
28.5" 500 spine bare shaft
----I'm shooting tight 3 arrow groups with this!

I plugged in my successful real-world numbers into the online calculators (3rivers / victory / etc) and they would all have me way overspined by a country mile.

My scale shows these un-feathered arrows to be 498 grains. Which gives me a 11.58 gpp arrow. I don't believe that this a "radical" arrow setup.

This experience has made me very wary of "calculators." Also, fat turkey feathers hide/correct some crazy spine issues.

 

[bjfoxhoven]

Slightly off subject here, but still tuning lol. I had issues with nock low with some arrows. Had to have nock close to 1” high. Shooting off the shelf with three under (not unheard of but definitely not the most efficient). I understand tillering well enough to know I needed to back out the bottom limb of my galaxy sear ILF to help with the tail low flight. Well I couldn’t get enough negative tiller to make any difference. So I finally said heck with shooting off the shelf and screwed in the elevated rest (holds the arrow at least 1/8” higher than the shelf did), to help with the tiller. I was able to then lower my nock point to get perfect flight. I even emailed galaxy right away when I had issues with the nock low and asked him specifically if it was engineered to be shot of the shelf or the elevated rest... I didn’t get an answer to that question. I guess I had to figure it out myself lol. Obviously many other things come into play (finger pressure with the hook, heal of the hand pressure on the grip, etc), but this set up how is 100x more consistent even when I change all those other variables when shooting bare shafts. I knew elevated tests tend to be more forgiving, but didn’t think it would be so obvious. Now I have a little less hand shock and I assume more quiet set up too. I wanted to shoot off the shelf for simplicity and because it was more trad... well I plan to shoot what works best and shelf it is for now with this rig. In hindsight I possibly could have swapped the lower limb and too limb to get the negative tiller needed and left the shelf on, but I’m not messing with it now.

 

[North Idaho Stickbow]

I have the same issue with off-the-shelf shooting. I shoot three under as well. I get some weird arrow flight too, and I totally destroy whatever covering I put on the shelf. It’s been that way with all my bows, and I can’t figure it out. I just shoot a feather rest now, and my arrow flight is amazing. That thing is so forgiving and easy to shoot off of.