What ammo to put in my 10mm for protection?

[GraniteChief]

I have an XDM 10mm for woods protection and am looking for advice on what ammo to carry for protection against A) black bears, B) brown bears, C) moose (would a pistol even stop one?), and D) aggressive dogs (I’ve actually been attacked before, so this is probably the most likely scenario). I do carry bear spray btw, but I want backup. I travel in areas with just black bears and a mix of black and brown.

Now that ammo is available again, I have a lot of choices, particularly from Underwood: 200gr and 180gr XTP JHP, Lehi extreme hunters and penetrators, 200gr and 220gr hardcast, and 190gr solid copper flat nose from Cutting Edge have all caught my attention.

There’s tons of posts about this on gun forums, mostly touting hard cast, but I suspect it’s mostly hearsay over there. Sure, if I shoot a bear in the brain with hardcast it’ll drop. If I hit its lungs it’ll drop eventually. I’m not target shooting every weekend though and I’m guessing half my shots will miss a charging bear, let alone hit him in the eye. He’ll be too close to bleed out before I’m dead.

I read a post somewhere by a hunting guide who touted the biggest JHP you can get, with special regard for XTP. From his experience, JHP stops the bear long enough to empty your magazine whereas hardcast whizzes right through and the bear keeps going for another 30 seconds before it drops. It seemed like he was mostly talking about black bears though.

Any suggestions that’ll help me feel safer when I’m hunting/fishing/hiking in the Rockies?

 

[Tmac]

I have a buddy that drops elk and black bear with 180XTP’s out of a 10mm, under 100 yards. He is a very good shot.

If your pistol feeds them, maybe alternate a JHP and penetrator style. The flat meplat on most pistol hard cast bullets is large enough to do more than just pencil through. They do make a temp cavity, not a large one, but it‘s there on the gelatin video’s I’ve seen.

Nothing short of a CNS hit is going to drop a Moose or Bear immediately, but a hit or two has been known to turn them. Good luck.

 

[TheGDog]

Personally I stagger-stack the mags between the Xtreme Penetrator and the Defense. Or Xtreme Penetrator and the Hornady Handgun Hunter. Both are lead-free for CA's lead-free requirement.

I figure that way I've got both worlds. Penetration but not the biggest cavity... then biggest cavity, but perhaps not thru-and-thru penetration.

I figure if the first shot of Penetrator doesn't get it... the 2nd shot with more temporary wound cavity might have a better chance of inducing shock and additional hemorrhaging in the animal?

Also maybe with larger wound cavity more non-vital structures that are nearby might become damaged as the shockwave of energy radiates outward? Like possibly fracturing bones nearby to the entry wound? Possibly disabling his ability to run-up on me?

 

[Wyobohunter]

I’m definitely not an expert.

200 or 220 gr hardcast. I roll my own but the Buffalo Bore stuff is nearly identical. I’ve read (not experienced) that the only sure way to stop them dead in their tracks is a CNS hit or smashing big mobility bones. Hard cast will out penetrate and out smash any JHP.

Hard cast can kill fast though. I loaned my 45-70 to a buddy for a Kodiak hunt. He hit a decent bear with a big heavy hard cast bullet. Broke the shoulder, went all the way through, broke the opposite hip and dropped him where he stood. A big wide meplat all but makes up for a non-expanding bullet on thick heavy animals with big bones. But it out penetrates nearly every time.

 

[Wrench]

I've only killed one bear with a 200gr xtp and given it's performance, I carry a 9 and 40 a lot more now.

Whatever you choose, make sure you can feed it reliably, can shoot it accurately and it doesn't flash super bright.

A hardcast can be driven slower with good penetration results.

There's no wrong answer and a lot of opinions.

 

[h2so4]

I’m partial, but I think this would be a great option. This also might be the first pic of this on the internet or in the wild!
Not even on the black hills website yet.

 

[Overdrive]

I'm electing to use 200 gr Underwood hard cast in my 10mm. I don't need to worry about Brown bears where I'm at. Mainly carrying for protection against black bear, mountain lion and wolves. Plus the 200 gr meets state regs for pistol ft/lbs if I have a bear license in my pocket I can harvest one while guiding (but probably wouldn't ruin a guided elk hunt to mess with a bear)

 

[Wyobohunter]

I'm electing to use 200 gr Underwood hard cast in my 10mm. I don't need to worry about Brown bears where I'm at. Mainly carrying for protection against black bear, mountain lion and wolves. Plus the 200 gr meets state regs for pistol ft/lbs if I have a bear license in my pocket I can harvest one while guiding (but probably wouldn't ruin a guided elk hunt to mess with a bear)

Man, I wish WY would get with the program and allow 10mm Auto for hunting. Not that it’d be my 1st, or even 2nd choice for elk. I just think it’s bunk that it’s not even legal to hunt deer with yet the .357 magnum is.

 

[Overdrive]

Man, I wish WY would get with the program and allow 10mm Auto for hunting. Not that it’d be my 1st, or even 2nd choice for elk. I just think it’s bunk that it’s not even legal to hunt deer with yet the .357 magnum is.

Yup falls just short with 1.5" overall length reg.

 

[TheGDog]

I’m partial, but I think this would be a great option. This also might be the first pic of this on the internet or in the wild!
Not even on the black hills website yet.

Oooh! at 115gr, I bet that velocity would Sing!

 

[Wyobohunter]

Oooh! at 115gr, I bet that velocity would Sing!

The sectional density wouldn’t be good. I doubt it’d penetrate well. I could be wrong but you can’t get around physics. No doubt the energy would be high but the momentum would be pretty low. I’d like to see some tests.

 

[TheGDog]

The 9mm Xtreme Penetrator rounds weigh 115 grains.

So if that Honey Badger is similar, but with even more powder behind it... shouldn't that result in deeper penetration than the 9mm Lehigh Penetrator, assuming both projectiles are designed with same goal in mind?

 

[h2so4]

The sectional density wouldn’t be good. I doubt it’d penetrate well. I could be wrong but you can’t get around physics. No doubt the energy would be high but the momentum would be pretty low. I’d like to see some tests.

I hear ya- when I first learned of the 10mm HoneyBadger, I was hoping for a heavier load. The good folks at Black Hills have a pretty good handle on things, so I am sure appropriate testing was done. Anyway-
I’ll have all the ballistic and testing info later this week. I’ll try to remember to post it or send it to you.

 

[Wyobohunter]

The 9mm Xtreme Penetrator rounds weigh 115 grains.

So if that Honey Badger is similar, but with even more powder behind it... shouldn't that result in deeper penetration than the 9mm Lehigh Penetrator, assuming both projectiles are designed with same goal in mind?

I’d be shocked if either the Xtreme penetrator or the Honey Badger loads will penetrate as well as a heavier solid bullet driven at modest velocity from the same barrel. Especially after encountering heavy bone. It’s a matter of sectional density and momentum. I’ve been wrong before. I’m just going off of what I currently know (or think I know ) about physics as it relates to terminal ballistics.

That 9mm 115 grain bullet has a significantly higher sectional density than the 115 gr 10mm bullet. If velocity is about equal I’d put my money on the 9mm punching deeper if neither expand and both track a fairly straight line. Light bullets going fast produce lots of energy but energy isn’t necessarily what causes penetration if that energy is lost quickly.

 

[Wingshooter]

I carry the 200 grain underwood hardcast in my Glock 20 when I cross the Mississippi. I am most concerned about penetration if something big and harry is trying to bite/stomp me. I also like the underwood because I can afford to buy plenty and practice with it some without spending a ridiculous amount of money.

 

[Wyobohunter]

I carry the 200 grain underwood hardcast in my Glock 20 when I cross the Mississippi. I am most concerned about penetration if something big and harry is trying to bite/stomp me. I also like the underwood because I can afford to buy plenty and practice with it some without spending a ridiculous amount of money.

The Buffalo Bore is insanely expensive and nothing special. Makes sense to find a more economical option if you don’t handload. I get the same results (velocity) with the same exact bullet as BB for way cheaper on my bench.

 

[Jacack]

I shoot a mix of underwood hard cast and the extreme penetrate. Killed a few florida hogs with the extreme penetraters and they seem to do what they say as they make a internal mess and always exit.

They shoot better in my glock as far as accuracy compared to the cast also.

 

[Voyageur]

I’ll have all the ballistic and testing info later this week. I’ll try to remember to post it or send it to you.

Please do share when you receive the testing info

 

[Weldor]

Great info guys. I've been shooting Blazer 180 gr. for practice, groups seem good for my shooting ability. I am going to try to get close as I can with a hard cast reload. I really like my XDM 5.25. FHF makes a great chest carry rig. I would need a ton more practice to hit a moving Bear!

 

[h2so4]

For the guys that asked-
Here Is the ballistic info on the black hills HoneyBadger:
4” test barrel
1,600 fps
654 ft lbs.

If you’re shooting it out if a glock 20, you’ll get more velocity/energy due to the longer barrel.