Which Arrow Build?

[Marble]

I'm already getting my broadheads a little further back than I like. I'd prefer them to clear the riser. Right now they're about even with the riser. Much shorter and they'll back into my rest.

Yeah you're good there lol. You'll be alright.

 

[Marble]

As far as spine goes I'd be happy to check your intended setup in Archer's Advantage and see what it thinks.

When it comes to weight, IMO you could probably add at least 100 grains to your setup before you come even close to too slow, unless you're shooting a really old bow.

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I was thinking the same thing. I was really surprised when I added 50 grains and all it did was loose 10 fps and get quiet.

 

[Rob5589]

I'm already getting my broadheads a little further back than I like. I'd prefer them to clear the riser. Right now they're about even with the riser. Much shorter and they'll back into my rest.

Copy that

 

[60x]

Don’t get caught up in foc. Also there is no tipping point at all. Build for overall weight and trajectory you are looking for and above all build for strength. I’d personally from the choices go with the axis and add footers and shoot em up

 

[nwcurt]

BTW - I can't believe the incredibly helpful - and FAST - responses! You folks are awesome!

I'm shooting an Elite Energy 35. It's zippy enough for me. Not a speed freak. One of the reasons I started looking into new builds was I am having trouble figuring out how to add 50 or grains to my existing Axis arrows. Not really any good options that I can find with an epoxied HIT already in there.

I figured as long as I was considering a total rebuild I might as well look at other options, which sent me down this spreadsheet/calculator rabbit hole

 

[nwcurt]

Don’t get caught up in foc. Also there is no tipping point at all. Build for overall weight and trajectory you are looking for and above all build for strength. I’d personally from the choices go with the axis and add footers and shoot em up

Thank you! I've actually thought a lot of the extreme FOC stuff the last few years has been a bit silly, but I am starting to believe that TOO LOW FOC can be a real issue. My bow is paper tuned. Bareshaft tuned. I can consistently stay on 2" stickers at 20 yards, 30 yards. As I get further out the groups open up a bit, naturally, but they also start to come it at different angles. Almost like they're starting to flutter or parachute a little.

Who knows - maybe I'm chasing the wrong thing! This is just what makes sense to me. What footers would you recommend?

 

[wildwilderness]

You already mentioned what I would do - iron will collar and 125 gr head easily adds 50 gr to your current arrow all up front. I currently shoot 330 injexions with iron will collars and 100gr, but I think you might have to go with the 280s which would be heavier than your 300 axis shafts.

Have you looked at the Victory VAP arrows and steel insert? Guys I know shoot them and have great FOC. They even make skinny ones that help with wind.

I just ran a quick guess on gold tips FOC calculator with a 300 VAP with 95gr insert and came up with about a 490gr arrow at 15% FOC. About perfect for what you wanted!

 

[nwcurt]

You already mentioned what I would do - iron will collar and 125 gr head easily adds 50 gr to your current arrow all up front. I currently shoot 330 injexions with iron will collars and 100gr, but I think you might have to go with the 280s which would be heavier than your 300 axis shafts.

Have you looked at the Victory VAP arrows and steel insert? Guys I know shoot them and have great FOC. They even make skinny ones that help with wind.

I think I would need to change shafts. I'm on the very edge of 300/260 already. Adding weight up front would push me to the 260s almost for sure.

Those micro arrows are interesting. I like their specs, but I've been avoiding anything with a half out insert. At our archery range / club we literally have 5 gallon buckets full of broken arrows and those seem way over represented - especially since not many folks shoot them. Almost all are broken up front.

 

[MattB]

There's a point where the weight gets the speed down enough that kinetic energy actually starts to reverse. I know kinetic energy isn't everything and misses some effects in the real world, but seeing it go down probably isn't the right direction to be going. For my setup that happens around 530 grains or so.

No, there isn't. At least not within the realm you are referencing.

 

[wildwilderness]

I think I would need to change shafts. I'm on the very edge of 300/260 already. Adding weight up front would push me to the 260s almost for sure.

Those micro arrows are interesting. I like their specs, but I've been avoiding anything with a half out insert. At our archery range / club we literally have 5 gallon buckets full of broken arrows and those seem way over represented - especially since not many folks shoot them. Almost all are broken up front.

My injexions are not as strong as the 300 axis I shot on my old bow, until I added the iron will collar. Won’t shoot them without it now. However that brings up the issue of Deep 6 Broadhead and lack of supply. The archery shop here swears by the Easton Ti 55gr halfout for injexions though. I haven’t tried it or any halfouts like you said.

 

[doverpack12]

You should be able to add a black eagle or gold tip screw in weight to the back of the HIT insert. Takes a long special skinny wrench to add them after inserts are installed. You certainly have room to cut your arrows down too. Draw the bow and have someone mark an arrow at the front of the rest. Add about half an inch (more if your Broadheads sweep way back behind the end of arrow) and that is your minimum length. I shoot 29.75” draw with 27” carbon to carbon arrows. If you are thinking of cutting the HITs out you have to cut off 1-7/8” to be right at the back edge.

 

[nwcurt]

You should be able to add a black eagle or gold tip screw in weight to the back of the HIT insert. Takes a long special skinny wrench to add them after inserts are installed. You certainly have room to cut your arrows down too. Draw the bow and have someone mark an arrow at the front of the rest. Add about half an inch (more if your Broadheads sweep way back behind the end of arrow) and that is your minimum length. I shoot 29.75” draw with 27” carbon to carbon arrows. If you are thinking of cutting the HITs out you have to cut off 1-7/8” to be right at the back edge.

I didn't realize those mini weights worked with HIT inserts. Thanks for that tip! That could be a winner for sure.

 

[doverpack12]

I didn't realize those mini weights worked with HIT inserts. Thanks for that tip! That could be a winner for sure.

Nope just checked my hits to make sure and they are NOT threaded at the back end.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

There's a point where the weight gets the speed down enough that kinetic energy actually starts to reverse. I know kinetic energy isn't everything and misses some effects in the real world, but seeing it go down probably isn't the right direction to be going. For my setup that happens around 530 grains or so.

Have you verified the 530 gr "tipping point" with a chronograph, or is that number based on calculations? I haven't found an arrow weight at which KE begins to decrease in all the testing I've done. For example, below is KE vs. arrow weight data I collected a few years ago before and after swapping cams on a Mathews Heli-m I had recently purchased. At the time, I only took arrow weight to ≈500 gr, but I later did additional testing up to 650 gr and KE kept increasing.

An arrow's KE comes from the potential energy developed in the bow during the draw cycle and transferred to the arrow during the shot. A bow's PE is a function of draw weight, draw length, brace height, cam profile, and let-off percentage, and PE remains fixed as long as those parameters aren't changed. With modern compound bows, ≈90% of the PE developed gets transferred to the arrow. The other 10% is "lost" to friction in moving components, acceleration of the string and accessories, continued movement of the string after the arrow decouples, and vibration of the limbs/riser. These losses are perceived as noise and "hand shock." The amount of PE developed in the bow is fixed, but energy losses decrease with increasing arrow weight; thus, a heavier arrow receives more energy from the bow than a lighter arrow (and the bow tends to be quieter with less post-shot vibration). The KE increase is relatively small though, and for practical purposes, KE can be assumed to remain constant.

I've heard it claimed that there is a point somewhere in the multi-thousand grain realm at which arrow KE will decrease due to the bow beginning to "recoil" against the arrow during the shot. I can't confirm that claim, but it sounds reasonable. All my testing has indicated that for realistic hunting/target weight arrows, KE increases (slightly) with arrow weight.

 

[mfllood3800]

Most everyones groups begin to open up the farther back you go. 6%-9% is totally acceptable FOC. I personally like 9%-15%. But I never saw low FOC arrows acting weird at 70, 80 or even 90 yards. Vanes and their configuration play a big role in arrow flight/speed down range- you never mentioned this if I remember right.

As far as arrows sticking in target at different angles, that can simply be, previous arrows creating a groove of least resistance and your current arrow getting sucked into them and distorting the penetration angles.

Number you arrows, 1,2,3,4,5,6 etc.
Then check the angle in target for the same identified arrows after a few different shots to verify if this is really an arrow/tuning set up or not.
I have a couple indoor target rigs set up perfectly that will have an arrow get kicked one way or another, and that is just due to the target, nothing else.

If you're shooting a drop away, be sure the launcher blade isn't kicking back off riser shelf. Also make sure vanes are clearing all cables etc.

 

[MattB]

As stated, I doubt that low FOC is really an issue with your longer range groups.

 

[nwcurt]

Have you verified the 530 gr "tipping point" with a chronograph, or is that number based on calculations? I haven't found an arrow weight at which KE begins to decrease in all the testing I've done. For example, below is KE vs. arrow weight data I collected a few years ago before and after swapping cams on a Mathews Heli-m I had recently purchased. At the time, I only took arrow weight to ≈500 gr, but I later did additional testing up to 650 gr and KE kept increasing.

An arrow's KE comes from the potential energy developed in the bow during the draw cycle and transferred to the arrow during the shot. A bow's PE is a function of draw weight, draw length, brace height, cam profile, and let-off percentage, and PE remains fixed as long as those parameters aren't changed. With modern compound bows, ≈90% of the PE developed gets transferred to the arrow. The other 10% is "lost" to friction in moving components, acceleration of the string and accessories, continued movement of the string after the arrow decouples, and vibration of the limbs/riser. These losses are perceived as noise and "hand shock." The amount of PE developed in the bow is fixed, but energy losses decrease with increasing arrow weight; thus, a heavier arrow receives more energy from the bow than a lighter arrow (and the bow tends to be quieter with less post-shot vibration). The KE increase is relatively small though, and for practical purposes, KE can be assumed to remain constant.

I've heard it claimed that there is a point somewhere in the multi-thousand grain realm at which arrow KE will decrease due to the bow beginning to "recoil" against the arrow during the shot. I can't confirm that claim, but it sounds reasonable. All my testing has indicated that for realistic hunting/target weight arrows, KE increases (slightly) with arrow weight.
View attachment 163970

Wow! I'm amazed you took the time to go into that kind of detail. THANK YOU! I did base it on calculations only.

I guess in my head I think of it two ways. I imagine a toothpick shot at 2000 fps at an elk. No matter how fast it's going, it's just not going to have the impact due to it's tiny weight. On the other end, I think of a broom handle being thrown at an elk. It's huge and heavy, but moving so slowly that will just bounce off and do no damage. In my fantasy world all arrows are on the spectrum between the toothpick and the broom handle.

But, when I get out of my head for a minute, I realize that we're talking about a very tiny slice of the spectrum and the differences between all of the setups are pretty tiny in the grand scheme of things.

 

[nwcurt]

Most everyones groups begin to open up the farther back you go. 6%-9% is totally acceptable FOC. I personally like 9%-15%. But I never saw low FOC arrows acting weird at 70, 80 or even 90 yards. Vanes and their configuration play a big role in arrow flight/speed down range- you never mentioned this if I remember right.

As far as arrows sticking in target at different angles, that can simply be, previous arrows creating a groove with least resistance and your current arrow getting sucked into them and distorting the penetration.

Number you arrows, 1,2,3,4,5,6 etc.
Then check the angle in target after a few different shots to verify if this is really an arrow/tuning set up or not.
I have a couple indoor target rigs set up perfectly that will have an arrow get kicked one way or another, and that is just due to the target, botching else.

If you're shooting a drop away, be sure the launcher blade isn't kicking back off riser shelf. Also make sure vanes are clearing all cables etc.

This is super helpful. I've numbered my arrows for years, but always tracked them for accuracy, not angles. That's something I'll do next time I go to the range. Pretty sure my rest is dropping fine. Hadn't thought about cables clipping the vanes, but it seems that would be consistently off, not random, correct?

Also, I'm experimenting with vanes right now and my higher profile ones are actually a bit more accurate than my low profile ones so I don't think they're hitting anything.

 

[mfllood3800]

This is super helpful. I've numbered my arrows for years, but always tracked them for accuracy, not angles. That's something I'll do next time I go to the range. Pretty sure my rest is dropping fine. Hadn't thought about cables clipping the vanes, but it seems that would be consistently off, not random, correct?

Also, I'm experimenting with vanes right now and my higher profile ones are actually a bit more accurate than my low profile ones so I don't think they're hitting anything.

It can still be random. If you torque your bow hand more on one shot compared to the other, it will affect that string/cable clearance, among other issues that show up more visible the further you shoot at distances.
That's why a lot of folks prefer to shoot further to ensure tuning is not an issue. They group tune to see what is often hidden in paper tuning.

Higher vanes are better at steering, especially with broad heads. But they also drag more further down range, than lower profiles. Some archers change from a 3 fletch, high profile to a 4 fletch lower profile to compensate this.

In the end it comes down to what groups best at you MER for you set up.

 

[CApighunter]

I shoot the 260 Hexx with 200 gr up front, around 515 total. They fly great out to 80 yards.