Whitetail Arrow Build

[three5x5s]

I'm 26Dl @ 54#s.. No way I'm shooting a 475 gr. arrow for whitetail. An alert deer is not going to wait for that arrow to get there (from my bow) and if you miss your yardage ( and I do) by just a few yards your missing that deer completely. But that's just me. There are give and takes on both ends. I wont argue that heavier penetrates further, is quite, and tunes easier. I just choose faster/flatter over slower/heavier as I have not yet had a penetration problem. Easton acc 3-28s w/ 3 blade Wac"ems.

 

[Page Master]

Sorry, thought you said to use a 400 grain arrow would be asinine.

No sir. I think dropping from 453g to 400g to achieve 10-15fps to flatten trajectory would be asinine when it is a compound only shooting 206fps. 206-220fps is not that much of a difference to warrant going that much lighter in my experience. My old compounds all shot 215-240 and the difference from 10-30 yards was pretty minimal on my pins. I have faith and luck using heavier arrows to keep everything quiet and help with penetration on any spot I hit a whitetail. I don't think sacrificing that insurance for a marginal amount of speed is worth it. But I'm not hunting moose, or shooting them with a 350g arrow in any scenario.

There is more going on than just dropping arrow weight.
Must factor in all things, Speed, Weight, Trajectory and Kinetic energy.

I just ran some numbers on the two scenarios;
His current set-up, and without the 100 grain insert (guessing 50 fps faster).

His current set-up, 206fps, 453gr. has;
- Kinetic energy of 41ft lbs at 20 yards
- Kinetic energy of 40ft lbs at 30 yards
- Trajectory between 20 and 30 yards - 22" of arrow drop

Without 100gr. insert, 256fps. 353gr. has;
- Kinetic energy of 49ft lbs at 20 yards
- Kinetic energy of 48ft lbs at 30 yards
- Trajectory between 20 and 30 yards - 14" of arrow drop

KE is not lost and the arrow gets there faster, which reduces error of misjudging distance and deer jumping the string, and the most important thing - Hitting what you are aiming at.

100g less would be about 30-35fps depending on a million scenarios. 10g=3fps is rule of thumb. 206fps to 256fps is a significant difference that would change quite a bit of factors. Trajectory on sub 30 yard shots for whitetail is usually minimal as most arrows reach an arc at 35-40 yards. So if you figure 206-235/241fps and a 5'' difference, I would still probably take the heavier arrow. But again you can have a preference either way. I've had good luck with 450 +/- on everything smaller than elk.

 

[Billy Goat]

No sir. I think dropping from 453g to 400g to achieve 10-15fps to flatten trajectory would be asinine when it is a compound only shooting 206fps. 206-220fps is not that much of a difference to warrant going that much lighter in my experience. My old compounds all shot 215-240 and the difference from 10-30 yards was pretty minimal on my pins. I have faith and luck using heavier arrows to keep everything quiet and help with penetration on any spot I hit a whitetail. I don't think sacrificing that insurance for a marginal amount of speed is worth it. But I'm not hunting moose, or shooting them with a 350g arrow in any scenario.



100g less would be about 30-35fps depending on a million scenarios. 10g=3fps is rule of thumb. 206fps to 256fps is a significant difference that would change quite a bit of factors. Trajectory on sub 30 yard shots for whitetail is usually minimal as most arrows reach an arc at 35-40 yards. So if you figure 206-235/241fps and a 5'' difference, I would still probably take the heavier arrow. But again you can have a preference either way. I've had good luck with 450 +/- on everything smaller than elk.

The setups I have used it's generally 3 grains per one fps, pretty close to the same thing you are saying with 10/3. I would take the extra 16 fps versus another 50 grains. Neither are enough to alter anything worth a stack of beans at 25 yards.

I'm just in preference of having velocity within reason to help with yardage estimation. Deer might come in and you know it's under 30, but not positive if it's 23 or 27 yards. At 206 fps it's going to matter. Or you get drawn back on a deer that's dead on 20, then turns and offers a shot that's 4-5 yards closer or further. These are things that are easy reason out when you aren't in the heat of the moment, but when you are at full draw it's a lot easier to know you have a few more yards of lee-way.

I'd probably drop the 100 grain insert all together, unless the potential for 300#+ whitetail exist.

 

[Page Master]

The setups I have used it's generally 3 grains per one fps, pretty close to the same thing you are saying with 10/3. I would take the extra 16 fps versus another 50 grains. Neither are enough to alter anything worth a stack of beans at 25 yards.

I'm just in preference of having velocity within reason to help with yardage estimation. Deer might come in and you know it's under 30, but not positive if it's 23 or 27 yards. At 206 fps it's going to matter. Or you get drawn back on a deer that's dead on 20, then turns and offers a shot that's 4-5 yards closer or further. These are things that are easy reason out when you aren't in the heat of the moment, but when you are at full draw it's a lot easier to know you have a few more yards of lee-way.

I'd probably drop the 100 grain insert all together, unless the potential for 300#+ whitetail exist.

Fair

 

[three5x5s]

You said that so much better than I did. Thanks

The setups I have used it's generally 3 grains per one fps, pretty close to the same thing you are saying with 10/3. I would take the extra 16 fps versus another 50 grains. Neither are enough to alter anything worth a stack of beans at 25 yards.

I'm just in preference of having velocity within reason to help with yardage estimation. Deer might come in and you know it's under 30, but not positive if it's 23 or 27 yards. At 206 fps it's going to matter. Or you get drawn back on a deer that's dead on 20, then turns and offers a shot that's 4-5 yards closer or further. These are things that are easy reason out when you aren't in the heat of the moment, but when you are at full draw it's a lot easier to know you have a few more yards of lee-way.

I'd probably drop the 100 grain insert all together, unless the potential for 300#+ whitetail exist.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

There is more going on than just dropping arrow weight.
Must factor in all things, Speed, Weight, Trajectory and Kinetic energy.

I just ran some numbers on the two scenarios;
His current set-up, and without the 100 grain insert (guessing 50 fps faster).

His current set-up, 206fps, 453gr. has;
- Kinetic energy of 41ft lbs at 20 yards
- Kinetic energy of 40ft lbs at 30 yards
- Trajectory between 20 and 30 yards - 22" of arrow drop

Without 100gr. insert, 256fps. 353gr. has;
- Kinetic energy of 49ft lbs at 20 yards
- Kinetic energy of 48ft lbs at 30 yards
- Trajectory between 20 and 30 yards - 14" of arrow drop

KE is not lost and the arrow gets there faster, which reduces error of misjudging distance and deer jumping the string, and the most important thing - Hitting what you are aiming at.

50 fps is an overestimate of the speed gain achievable by dropping 100 gr. Also, KE increases (slightly) with increasing arrow weight due to more efficient energy transfer from the bow to the arrow (i.e., less energy lost to noise/vibration). Using the OP's stated speed/weight values of 206 fps/453 gr (42.7 ft-lbs KE) as a baseline, I'd estimate 232 fps for a 353 gr arrow.

 

[journeyman713]

50 fps is an overestimate of the speed gain achievable by dropping 100 gr. Also, KE increases (slightly) with increasing arrow weight due to more efficient energy transfer from the bow to the arrow (i.e., less energy lost to noise/vibration). Using the OP's stated speed/weight values of 206 fps/453 gr (42.7 ft-lbs KE) as a baseline, I'd estimate 232 fps for a 353 gr arrow.

I was starting to think the same thing.
Here's the numbers at 232fps and 353gr. vs his current set-up;

His current set-up, 206fps, 453gr. has;
- Kinetic energy of 41ft lbs at 20 yards
- Kinetic energy of 40ft lbs at 30 yards
- Trajectory between 20 and 30 yards - 22" of arrow drop

Without 100gr. insert, 232fps. 353gr. has;
- Kinetic energy of 40ft lbs at 20 yards
- Kinetic energy of 39ft lbs at 30 yards
- Trajectory between 20 and 30 yards - 17" of arrow drop

 

[Billy Goat]

I'd bet loosing 100 grains he is closer to 240 than 230. Be curious to know. I haven't played much with varying arrow weights on that short of a draw.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

I'd bet loosing 100 grains he is closer to 240 than 230. Be curious to know. I haven't played much with varying arrow weights on that short of a draw.

I'm sticking with low 230's as my guess, but I'd be interested to know as well. If you assume KE remains constant at 42.7 ft-lbs, the calculated speed for a 353 gn arrow comes out to 233 fps (KE = mv²/450,240 ---> v = √[450,240×KE/m] ).

I've yet to find a bow for which KE and arrow weight are inversely correlated, though I've heard folks claim that their particular bow has a "sweet spot" at which KE peaks then falls off if arrow weight is further increased. I haven't found such an inflection point in the testing I've done; just a slow steady increase in KE as the arrow gets heavier.

 

[Billy Goat]

I'm sticking with low 230's as my guess, but I'd be interested to know as well. If you assume KE remains constant at 42.7 ft-lbs, the calculated speed for a 353 gn arrow comes out to 233 fps (KE = mv²/450,240 ---> v = √[450,240×KE/m] ).

I've yet to find a bow for which KE and arrow weight are inversely correlated, though I've heard folks claim that their particular bow has a "sweet spot" at which KE peaks then falls off if arrow weight is further increased. I haven't found such an inflection point in the testing I've done; just a slow steady increase in KE as the arrow gets heavier.

I think you're correct. I didn't think to do the backwards math. I have seen ke fall off, but it takes a pretty heavy arrow. Over 750 grain with 28.5" draw and 65# I dropped .9 ke where it had been previously steadily rising. Didn't test any higher.

 

[MattB]

I'm sticking with low 230's as my guess, but I'd be interested to know as well. If you assume KE remains constant at 42.7 ft-lbs, the calculated speed for a 353 gn arrow comes out to 233 fps (KE = mv²/450,240 ---> v = √[450,240×KE/m] ).

I've yet to find a bow for which KE and arrow weight are inversely correlated, though I've heard folks claim that their particular bow has a "sweet spot" at which KE peaks then falls off if arrow weight is further increased. I haven't found such an inflection point in the testing I've done; just a slow steady increase in KE as the arrow gets heavier.

I've never owned a bow model that was inefficient with heavy arrows, but a friend who used to run a shop has seen a few. In terms of KE, I don't know if that means KE declines beyond a certain arrow weight or if the rate of increase diminishes.

 

[journeyman713]

I'm sticking with low 230's as my guess, but I'd be interested to know as well. If you assume KE remains constant at 42.7 ft-lbs, the calculated speed for a 353 gn arrow comes out to 233 fps (KE = mv²/450,240 ---> v = √[450,240×KE/m] ).

Your KE calculation seems high. Are you factoring in at distance with 27" arrow and fletchings?

 

[Mighty Mouse]

Your KE calculation seems high. Are you factoring in at distance with 27" arrow and fletchings?

No. 42.7 ft-lbs is the calculated KE at launch based on the OP's stated arrow weight and chrono'd speed (assuming the chrono was placed at 0 yds, not some distance downrange).

 

[USMC22]

For those wondering about FPS here is some numbers. I got some lower weight heads I can put on tomorrow and run through the chrono again to compare a 350, 450 and will go a little heavier just for giggles.

• Shot 5 shots w/ a 365 gr arrow through chrono
  • 1st 225 FPS
  • 2nd 224 FPS
  • 3rd 226 FPS
  • 4th 227 FPS
  • 5th 226 FPS
  • Average 225.6 FPS
• Shot 5 shots w/ a 450 gr arrow through chrono
  • 1st 205 FPS
  • 2nd 206 FPS
  • 3rd 206 FPS
  • 4th 206 FPS
  • 5th 206 FPS
  • Average 205.8 FPS

 

[JayTx]

If it were me, I'd lose the brass inserts. Your FOC is high, and so is your overall arrow weight for that poundage and draw length.
The increased speed will flatten your trajectory and improve hitting where you aim, at the various distances.
Hitting where you want is the most important thing IMO.

If you look at the numbers dropping 50 grains doesn't do much for trajectory in the grande scheme of things especially at close ranges. As long as he practices and knows his holds he's ok. I'd rather have the momentum with that heavier arrow than a little more speed. Plus his setup will be quieter as will the arrow in flight.

 

[Fogalo]

Maybe switch to a beefier broadhead. I shot stingers for years and had enough problems the ferrule breaking if they hit a shoulder.

 

[406unltd]

Shit man if it were me I’d basically keep it where it’s at since long shots aren’t gonna happen. If she tunes up good and hits with fixed heads I’d keep what you got

 

[Husker Buck]

With the shots distances you have, I would keep it as is. Take smart shots, put the arrow where it needs to be and all will be good.

I've shot many whitetails, with a 410g arrow, many complete pass throughs. I feel that having a calm, not rushed shot (from a shooters standpoint) and a calm, non-alert deer allowing you to make an under control, not too close to the the shoulder shot makes a big difference.