Who else is managing land for whitetails?

[rookieforever33]

Why do you shoot the does? What does that do for you?


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

A couple theories I have heard I'm starting to believe
1) does rule the woods 11 months of the year. Any buck except last years forkies will stay the hell away until the rut. Even then they only push in there when they need to find a hot one. If you have an island of woods in ag land the bucks may find hot does without ever stepping in the area
2) if a buck leaves a doe after breeding and finds another hot doe 100 yards away he may never make it by your stand.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

A couple theories I have heard I'm starting to believe
1) does rule the woods 11 months of the year. Any buck except last years forkies will stay the hell away until the rut. Even then they only push in there when they need to find a hot one. If you have an island of woods in ag land the bucks may find hot does without ever stepping in the area
2) if a buck leaves a doe after breeding and finds another hot doe 100 yards away he may never make it by your stand.

At least where I hunt in Virginia, the first one is outright false. The bucks maintain the same scrapes and rub lines year after year and I see them from July on through the season. In fact, they only become scarce once the hunting pressure starts. They become more wary from the beginning of season until the rut, but I still see them. They are just near food sources, not does.

During the rut, they lose their minds and come from all over to compete for the does. Since the does bed down in the same basic 200 yard by 200 yard box most of their lives (and daughters live with their mothers), I know exactly where to go once the rut starts.

Anyone who sits on a stand during the rut should be on a chokepoint and have someone else scare them to him. I’m not a big fan of stand hunting anyway. Still hunting from spot to spot has always worked best for me.

The only reason to shoot does is to keep the deer population low. That’s important only if weather is harsh and winter forage is rare. Fewer deer competing for scarce food makes it easier for a buck that has survived the rut to survive the winter.

____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[rookieforever33]

At least where I hunt in Virginia, the first one is outright false. The bucks maintain the same scrapes and rub lines year after year and I see them from July on through the season. In fact, they only become scarce once the hunting pressure starts. They become more wary from the beginning of season until the rut, but I still see them. They are just near food sources, not does.

During the rut, they lose their minds and come from all over to compete for the does. Since the does bed down in the same basic 200 yard by 200 yard box most of their lives (and daughters live with their mothers), I know exactly where to go once the rut starts.

Anyone who sits on a stand during the rut should be on a chokepoint and have someone else scare them to him. I’m not a big fan of stand hunting anyway. Still hunting from spot to spot has always worked best for me.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

Thats why it is great to be able to hunt the same area year after year. You learn your area like you have. In my area of big ag land with fence rows and occasional islands of woods they seem to run differently than that. Taking more does in the early season means more buck movement during the rut. Taking more does year after year means more bucks year round. Go 20 miles from me where big timber follows the river bittoms for miles is probably different. 20 miles the other way is suburbia where bucks are eating fliwers out of peoples landscaping. Managing property depends on what the neighborhood deer do and react. If making sure my family and friends freezers are full of doe meat means I see more bucks, I'm shooting more does.
Also keep in mind I didnt shoot does for 5 years to see what happened. I saw 26 deer 1 night and never laid eyes on a big buck all year. 2 pictures on my camera was it. Nobody wants to shoot every doe on the property. Just thin the ladies so the bucks have room to move.

 

[Pilsner]

Controlled burns made the biggest, and most fun, impact on our mountain. Arson for conservation! What's not to love?!
TSI would be a distant second.

 

[Btaylor]

At least where I hunt in Virginia, the first one is outright false. The bucks maintain the same scrapes and rub lines year after year and I see them from July on through the season.

____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

I think you missed his point. Generally, doe groups or more specifically the matriarch doe in a group will control the best habitat area or areas. Fawning cover and food are important to her raising fawns. That is an entirely different issue than scrapes and rubs which are going to be made or show up around and during the rut.

Obviously this depends on the size of the property but assuming a decent size piece. The more habitat work that is done, it should be creating more food and cover. If your property becomes the best habitat in the area, it will pull deer from surrounding properties. If you dont control the mouths being fed, habitat quality will suffer. Also as mentioned above, keeping herd balanced as much as possible helps towards keeping a healthy herd and in most cases will result in a more pronounced rut with less second cycle breeding.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

No, I didn’t miss his point. Assuming you have sufficient winter forage, there is no downside to having more deer. Unless the bucks who survive hunting season are starving to death during the winter, there is no advantage to having fewer deer. The does aren’t going to run off the bucks.

If I could only have 25-40 acres, particularly if it was surrounded by agricultural fields, I would try to create terrain where does felt secure bedding down. And once they settled in there, I would leave them alone shooting wise and get them used to my presence. I’d let the boundary fence lines grow up, put a “ring path” around it, with a hedge along the inside edge of that, then try to create a patchwork of hardwoods, dense cover, and orchard / winter pasture. I’d walk that ring path every day, morning and evening. The does would be my buck lures come the rut. And pre-rut, the bucks would still have a presence there.

With a stand at each corner of the ring road, I’d also have a reasonable chance at catching deer slipping in and out of the agricultural fields if I wanted to stand hunt. And some safe angles if I had another hunter stalk through while I sat in a corner stand.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Swamp Fox]

No, I didn’t miss his point. Assuming you have sufficient winter forage, there is no downside to having more deer. Unless the bucks who survive hunting season are starving to death during the winter, there is no advantage to having fewer deer. The does aren’t going to run off the bucks.
____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

There are a few downsides I can think of.

First, an abundance of winter forage doesn't last forever. An unhunted doe population will eventually lead to a food shortage /nutritional quality issue in most habitats.

Second, year-round nutrition takes a hit, as does and their fawns dominate the best feed, and bucks are naturally dispersed from them and that area through most of the year.

Too many deer hurts bio-diversity and "the health of the woods" well before deer start keeling over from starvation (or diseases linked to over-population). Think over-browsing, damage to the understory, lack of feed, nesting and security cover for other species, etc.

If bucks are taking the brunt of the hunting pressure (and they usually are) a deliberate policy of taking no does ON TOP OF THAT leads to sex ratio and age structure problems in addition to the above.

Fewer does and a conservative buck harvest also translates to a more intense and condensed rut, which is generally good for buck hunting and everyone's fung schway ---LOL

I could go on or into more detail, but most whitetail habitats benefit from a significant effort to take does. Areas which protected does 20 years ago have changed enough that a doe hunt is encouraged now.

I would love to hear what the deer biologists in your area have to say about all this, if you have the time to contact them.

 

[NLenz22]

I don't disagree with the logic behind shooting more does. But does anyone else see it as kind of a pointless effort?

On 120 acres in an area with really high deer density, how many does would I have to kill every fall to see a difference the next season? If the neighbors don't also make an effort to kill a ton of does, (which in most areas, they don't) would you not expect that empty habitat to be filled by does from surrounding areas by the next season?

I could imagine if you managed a 2,000 acre farm that you may be able to shoot enough does every season to make a noticeable difference. But on an average size parcel ~100 acres or less, without the neighbors being on the same page, I have a hard time seeing it being effective.

At least I've never been able to tell...

It makes the Jeff Sturgis mindset of trying to "eliminate doe factories" seem more feasible as a means to decrease doe numbers on your property. I haven't really implemented that myself, but I see the logic.

 

[KHNC]

A friend and I collectively own and lease about 1500 acres in the southeast. Fortunately we have access to great equipment. Not just tractors and implements but bulldozer, track hoe, forestry mulcher, no till drill, corn planter.

Food, water, cover. I started killing a lot more big deer when I figured out the best tactic to kill a mature whitetail is to sit downwind of the thickest cover you can find. Problem is, turkey don’t like that kind of cover so it’s become a balancing act for us as our focus has really shifted to turkey habitat management

We also have installed a number of long narrow lanes - up to 400 yards long but only ~25 yards wide thru creek bottoms and pine rows where the topography allows it. Those make great food plots with stands on one or both ends

We plant a mix of stuff for the game. Decent amount of chufa, corn, beans. If it is not planted in that it’s probably planted in Durana clover

Our biggest neighbor is a 750 acre lease. Hunted by only 2 guys who are like minded. So that helps. We do have a lot of brown/down hunters around us which is a constant source of frustration

Personally every stand I’ve got is placed based on the wind and being able to get in quietly.

I’m slowly switching from old school cameras to cell cams.

On our 1500 we have probably close to 20 feeders which run most of the year except for March and April (turkey season and a few weeks leading up to it). Most of the feeders have 6-8 deer standing around waiting for them to go off twice/day

We trap nest raiders pretty aggressively in the winter

We also shoot a good many coyote - mostly targets of opportunity while deer hunting

We are selective with bucks we shoot. Our goal (and our neighbors with the 750) is for a buck to be at least 4.5.

While I love it all and all of the above makes it sound like we must have good deer coming out of the woodwork, our county gets an immense amount of pressure and the deer are incredibly spooky. We rarely see them while riding around. And if a deer catches a whiff of your scent they turn inside out running the other way

We had a couple sounders of pigs show up a few years back. We bought a couple pig brigs and trapped them before they could get too bad.

Last year I killed 3 mature bucks that were at least 4.5 including one that was wounded (otherwise I would have passed on him) and another that was the biggest buck I’ve personally ever killed. There was a fourth mature buck killed by a guest of a friend and a couple of smaller bucks (one was an old deer with a brain abscess that was acting strange and the other was a kids first deer) and probably 10-12 does. We were light on the doe harvest because there were a couple of really nice bucks we pretty much committed the season to killing. I killed one but the other has gone missing. Neighbors on the 750 killed two mature bucks and some does

Turkey season was tough though. Only one gobbler killed on our 1500. But typically we can count on 2-4 gobblers/season

Watching cameras now in anticipation of season opening in early October. And we’ve got a few deer to hunt. They’ve mostly shed their velvet this week

Well, I know you must be in South Carolina.

I am as well. But not nearly as much property as you. I do some of the same exact things yall are doing, but on a much smaller scale. I do it by myself , so it seems pretty daunting each year.

 

[Btaylor]

I don't disagree with the logic behind shooting more does. But does anyone else see it as kind of a pointless effort?

On 120 acres in an area with really high deer density, how many does would I have to kill every fall to see a difference the next season? If the neighbors don't also make an effort to kill a ton of does, (which in most areas, they don't) would you not expect that empty habitat to be filled by does from surrounding areas by the next season?

I could imagine if you managed a 2,000 acre farm that you may be able to shoot enough does every season to make a noticeable difference. But on an average size parcel ~100 acres or less, without the neighbors being on the same page, I have a hard time seeing it being effective.

At least I've never been able to tell...

It makes the Jeff Sturgis mindset of trying to "eliminate doe factories" seem more feasible as a means to decrease doe numbers on your property. I haven't really implemented that myself, but I see the logic.

On a 100 acre or less property, my first evaluation would be to analyze what the make up of the surrounding properties is, to cover the neighboring 750-1000 acres at least. That is going to heavily influence whether I focus more on manipulating habitat to enhance travel, to create bedding or food, or some combination. Those decisions also should be influenced by how you prefer to hunt, bow or rifle. How many people and how they like to hunt will also impact what the right decision for a specific piece may be. Dont overlook access.

You are correct, you can do very little from a herd management perspective with a small acreage piece, esp if none of the neighbors are doing anything from a management perspective.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

On a 100 acre or less property, my first evaluation would be to analyze what the make up of the surrounding properties is, to cover the neighboring 750-1000 acres at least. That is going to heavily influence whether I focus more on manipulating habitat to enhance travel, to create bedding or food, or some combination. Those decisions also should be influenced by how you prefer to hunt, bow or rifle. How many people and how they like to hunt will also impact what the right decision for a specific piece may be. Dont overlook access.

You are correct, you can do very little from a herd management perspective with a small acreage piece, esp if none of the neighbors are doing anything from a management perspective.

The surrounding terrain and land is definitely a very important factor. Probably the most important factor for a small plot.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[NLenz22]

No, I didn’t miss his point. Assuming you have sufficient winter forage, there is no downside to having more deer. Unless the bucks who survive hunting season are starving to death during the winter, there is no advantage to having fewer deer. The does aren’t going to run off the bucks.

If I could only have 25-40 acres, particularly if it was surrounded by agricultural fields, I would try to create terrain where does felt secure bedding down. And once they settled in there, I would leave them alone shooting wise and get them used to my presence. I’d let the boundary fence lines grow up, put a “ring path” around it, with a hedge along the inside edge of that, then try to create a patchwork of hardwoods, dense cover, and orchard / winter pasture. I’d walk that ring path every day, morning and evening. The does would be my buck lures come the rut. And pre-rut, the bucks would still have a presence there.

With a stand at each corner of the ring road, I’d also have a reasonable chance at catching deer slipping in and out of the agricultural fields if I wanted to stand hunt. And some safe angles if I had another hunter stalk through while I sat in a corner stand.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

I'm not sure what your goal is for the property, but I think you would be alone in suggesting that walking around your property every day trying to get deer to see and smell you is the best way to shoot more deer. Where I'm at, that's a pretty good way to make sure any buck over 2-3 years old finds somewhere else to spend his time.

 

[MallardSX2]

We manage my 40 acres the best we can. We do NOT kill does. We use our land as a source of refuge for them and then kill the "neighbors bucks" that he informed me "he grows" when the rut comes.

 

[Q_Sertorius]

We manage my 40 acres the best we can. We do NOT kill does. We use our land as a source of refuge for them and then kill the "neighbors bucks" that he informed me "he grows" when the rut comes.

Exactly.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[Q_Sertorius]

I'm not sure what your goal is for the property, but I think you would be alone in suggesting that walking around your property every day trying to get deer to see and smell you is the best way to shoot more deer. Where I'm at, that's a pretty good way to make sure any buck over 2-3 years old finds somewhere else to spend his time.

I haven’t found that to be a problem at all. The does are the attraction for the bucks. As long as the does are there, the bucks will be there during the rut. And they are going to stay near the does because that’s just what they do.

I start scouting during squirrel season in October. I have a regular route I do every possible day that takes me just inside the wood line a couple of hundred yards below the doe bedding areas. This enables me to find the new Buck sign and confirm historic data about the does. And I get to enjoy the woods, work on my stalking, and field shooting on the squirrels.

Once black powder season starts, I still hunt the borders of our 550-600 acre farm. My goal here is to pick off one of “my neighbors’ bucks” and leave the central doe beds undisturbed. I generally walk 6-8 miles a day during this time (morning and evening hunts combined).

During rifle season, my brothers come down and we start hunting cooperatively. One or two hunters get to chokepoints or over watch positions before first light and another walks diagonally through the property, still hunting as he goes. The route is well-established and understood. It runs near the best doe beds, giving that hunter a chance at a buck near them, or drives a buck to the chokepoints. This almost always results in at least one of us taking a nice buck.

The rut usually coincides with the second week of rifle season. By then, all you have to do is still hunt to the doe bedding areas at first light. The bucks are going to be there. They can’t resist it.

This is last year’s recording, but by the time my brothers arrive, I typically have something like this to show them and get them to the right place at the right time.

So, no, you can’t just blunder through the woods, you have to use some thought about it, but as long as you have does, you will have bucks around. And it’s not like you need very many bucks to have a healthy herd.


____________________
“Keep on keepin’ on…”

 

[NLenz22]

Once black powder season starts, I still hunt the borders of our 550-600 acre farm. My goal here is to pick off one of “my neighbors’ bucks” and leave the central doe beds undisturbed.

During rifle season, my brothers come down and we start hunting cooperatively. One or two hunters get to chokepoints or over watch positions before first light and another walks diagonally through the property, still hunting as he goes. The route is well-established and understood. It runs near the best doe beds, giving that hunter a chance at a buck near them, or drives a buck to the chokepoints. This almost always results in at least one of us taking a nice buck.

Walking the border of a 600 acre farm every day is much less intrusive than walking the border of the aforementioned 25-40 acre farm. I don't see much harm in that.

I actually hunt one farm very similar to what you describe here. It's very difficult to access or even hunt just due to the topography and swirling winds, so I try to stay out of the core and leave it unmolested until the rut. Then when the rut kicks in, (rifle season in Missouri) I'll start being more aggressive and hunting closer to the doe bedding. We still bust a lot of deer that way and it's not ideal, but it's the best option until I can make some serious habitat improvements to get the deer consistently moving through other areas of the property.

Every farm is different and needs to be hunted differently. If it works, it works. But if I'm making a hunt plan for a hypothetical property, it's going to include stands that allow me to access and hunt without deer seeing or smelling me. At least in theory.