Youth Rifle in .223 / 5.56

[Sodbuster]

I have both the Tikka T3 and a Ruger American Ranch in fast twist 223.
My grandson and son both shoot them out to 400 yards. (SWFA 3-15's on both)
With a good heavy bullet I would let them drill a deer, no problem.

Tikka was good to go out of the box, I swapped the trigger in the Ruger for a Timney.
Ruger is threaded.
I have installed kydex cheek risers on both so even Grandma can shoot them.

 

[Yellowknife]

Lots of good tips on this, thanks guys.

Putting the 7-08 I've got in a magpul might not be a bad idea at all. The factory stock on that gun is trash and having an adjustable stock might be just the ticket to making it more usable. Just looked, and they also make one for the Ruger American, which I didn't know.

The kydex cheek riser to improve ergo's isn't a bad idea either on a compact bolt gun. That hadn't crossed my mind at all.

 

[TREE ‘EM]

I’ve had a RAR for a few years that my youngest son and I have used quite a bit. The stock is flimsy and cheap but that’s an easy DIY fix. We have 1500+ rounds through it with zero malfunctions. It’s also one of the most accurate out of the box rifles I’ve ever bought.

 

[BAKPAKR]

Like Matt, I started my daughter out with an AR15. When she was 3, she was shooting it with a 22LR upper. She subsequently moved to a 5.56 and shot her first deer at age 6. She just turned 9 and she used a 6.8mm SPC upper for a couple of does this year. I have been pretty impressed with how the AR platform has worked for her.

We actually looked at a Tikka T3X Compact last week. Even though she is fairly tall for her age, the 12.5 inch stock was a little long. She still wanted it. I had also thought about going with a Tikka T3X CTR with an XLR chassis (I think Luke has an XLR buttstock on the rifle in his photo) but I decided that she would be limited to using it prone or from a bench due to the weight, at least for the next couple of years.

 

[jolemons]

My Ruger Rancher shoots the Black Hills remanufactured 60gr V-Max >0.25 moa all day. It's worth owning for that fact alone imo.

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[H82miss]

Due to their small stature, both of my daughters started out on AR platform rifles. The adjustability can't be beat. My oldest daughter shot her first deer last year when she was 13 with an AR in 6.8 SPC

 

[howl]

If fitting stocks is the main criteria, get an AR. Well, get two. One in 22lr and one in centerfire. Manual of arms isn't an issue with my kids because all they do is put it in position and use the safety. If your kids use centerfires independently, being expected to run all the controls, then something else might be better. ARs seem to require adult hand strength to operate the charging handle and bolt release.

For bolt actions, Howa Minis are a good size without the downsides of the similar size CZ 527. Downsides is an opinion,of course.

There's nothing wrong with .223, but 6.5 Grendel offers a little more. The difference in recoil is hard to discern and well nigh impossible when shot at game.

 

[lyle_destroys]

I have a ruger american I got on a trade in 22-250. Im impressed so far, cheap enough Im not afraid to beat it up, but shoots great. And it has styling resembling a Tikka I think. I filled the stock with lead shot amd epoxy to use for a target rifle.

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[260madman]

I took the upper off of my 6.8 and threw together a 5.56 upper for my daughter to use. She’s 10 and shoots it quite well. The adjustable stock is comfortable and the Leupold Mark AR 3-9 TMR is very forgiving. Great combo.

 

[Yellowknife]

Appears there is a general consensus that the Ruger is a solid budget choice, and a surprising number (to me) of people using AR's as introduction guns. All good information.

I think if pretty much narrowed it down to one of those two or a used Tikka with the right twist. My overall familiarity with the Tikka as well as the large amount of aftermarket support for that platform keeps that one a contender.

 

[Brianb3]

Savage 11/111 light weight hunter is a great gun for youth. I got one in a wood stock .243 if interested. Think it’s a 6.5-7 lb gun with scope.


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[Ndbowhunter]

Be tough to skip over a Palmetto state build ar15 in that 350$ range for something else. Especially as a youth gun. Probably 10 of my nephews have hit small targets at very long range with 40cents a round ammo.. the one 13 year old was breaking up basketball size rocks at 730 yards within 20 rounds.. using reticle to adjust on misses.now that hornady has the frontier line with their 75gr it's even more of a no brainer

Grab a Miculek brake and double up foamies and ear muffs and ur girls will probably out shoot dad

No hesitation on less then 400 pound animals less then 400 yards.

 

[BAKPAKR]

If you would go with an AR for your child, you might want to consider an upgraded trigger. The mil-spec type triggers that come with a lot of lowers/rifles are in the 6 to 8 pound range. Fortunately, AR triggers are easier to replace. My daughter’s lower has a 3.5 pound Geissele SSA-E in it. Also, with 223s/5.56s, a mid length gas system will be softer shooting than a carbine length system.

 

[16Bore]

My 9 year old daughter shot the hell out of her Savage 243 "Muddy Girl" this past weekend. Kid had a ball, first centerfire too.

She was laughing because "the bullets kept going in the same spot!"

 

[Yellowknife]

If you would go with an AR for your child, you might want to consider an upgraded trigger. The mil-spec type triggers that come with a lot of lowers/rifles are in the 6 to 8 pound range. Fortunately, AR triggers are easier to replace. My daughter’s lower has a 3.5 pound Geissele SSA-E in it. Also, with 223s/5.56s, a mid length gas system will be softer shooting than a carbine lengt h system.

I know NOTHING about AR's, and looking at the internet today was less than helpful. The amount of variation is insane. Any other tips that might be relevant? Mid length mostly refers to the location of the gas system on the barrel, or is it a specific barrel length?

 

[Formidilosus]

Appears there is a general consensus that the Ruger is a solid budget choice, and a surprising number (to me) of people using AR's as introduction guns. All good information.

I think if pretty much narrowed it down to one of those two or a used Tikka with the right twist. My overall familiarity with the Tikka as well as the large amount of aftermarket support for that platform keeps that one a contender.

Tikka 223 with 1/8” twist, fixed 6x SWFA SS MQ.


I’m not saying the below applies to you, it’s just so you understand why I say the Tikka-

Having been apart of getting several dozen children started shooting and hunting, there’s a pretty clear pattern that emerges based on the philosophy of teaching them. I can say that what I/we do now is vastly different than what I did in the beginning. The conventional wisdom of how most believe they should start a child/wife/girlfriend, i.e.- make it as easy and simple as possible, get them success as quickly as possible, all the way to the common scenario of the person sitting in a blind that they didn’t build, looking at an animal that they had little to no part in finding (often a “big” animal”), with a rifle rested that they don’t manipulate, they didn’t zero, didn’t really learn to use it themselves, talking for five minutes that they “can’t find the buck” through the scope, finally finding it after being frustrated, pulling the trigger on a rifle they’re usually scared of, walking up to the animal while someone else moves it, takes pictures of it, quarters/cleans it, packs it out, and someone else turns it into food.

Almost everyone that I see or talk to does some version of the above “to get them started”. When you read it and think critically it’s no wonder most children/wives have about as much excitement hunting or shooting as they do watching golf. 100% of the new hunters that I have seen that started like this are ambivalent about it at best, and more often then not quit doing it altogether very soon. It’s boring, it sucks, they’re not invested or a part of it. Imagine going on a hunt now and having someone do the above for you.


Now, I don’t do any of that. A new Hunter is involved in the whole thing. A good example is my significant other. Complete non Hunter, non shooter, said the first time I met her that she would never go hunting. 6 months later she’s on a two week backpack trip to Montana, kills her first deer, carries it out, cuts it up, and grills it that night. It was HER hunt from start to finish. We helped where she needed it, but we did not try to do everything for her. It started with her being around us and listening to how and what we talked about. Eating venison, seeing the pictures, and realizing that it’s an adventure not shooting a deer over a food plot. Taught her to shoot. Actually taught her to shoot. We made it fun, but she learned to do it correctly and then got turned loose on the range with a case of ammo and steel targets every time we went. The shooting range was game and we did all kinds of competitions, races, played HORSE, etc. She started to love shooting. Then came the invitation to join us on our trip. Didn’t have to hunt, didn’t have to carry a gun, “just come out we’ll have snowball fights”. She helped plan, study maps, go on hikes, etc.

By this time she was already “a part” of the whole process. SHE asked about getting a tag. After she thought about it and decided that she was going to try hunting- then came hunters safety, clothing, packs, etc. When it came to the “which rifle” conversation we didn’t tell her which one to use. We explained what bullets do in animals and how they do it, pointed her in the right direction and made her read and research which round to use. She had 223, 243, and 308’s available in lightweight rifles. She was getting a doe tag and a cow elk tag. After reading, thinking, and shooting each it came down to the 223 and 243. She came and asked point blank- “will the 223 kill an elk cleanly?”. I told her yes with the Barnes or Speer Gold Dots, but she would need to treat it like an arrow with regards to placement and truthfully I tried to gently nudge her to the 243. The decision for her was based on shooting both side by side, from field positions, under a time constraint after a little bit of moving. No contest- she got more hits, way less misses, and over all did significantly better with the 223. She came up with her own limit for distance (350 yards prone on the pack, 200 yards sitting or kneeling over the pack, and 100 yards standing with a hiking pole as a shooting stick.


She went on the hunt, had a blast and was hooked. This was a 30 year old women, but she got hooked on hunting because it was an adventure, and SHE did it. Every child/wife that we have introduced to it this way have become passionate about it themselves.



The point to all this is children need to be able to manipulate the gun without help. They need to be completely comfortable shooting and hitting with it even under less than ideal conditions. Let them zero it, let them load it, unload it, get it into position, etc. No one shoots more rounds through AR15’s than I, and it’s doubtful that anyone thinks more highly of the system as much as I do either. However; children tend to not be able to load it, unload it, clear it, etc very well. Lay every gun mentioned side by side with a can of ammo next to each, turn a group of kids loose, and very quickly they’ll be a line behind the Tikka with everyone wanting to shoot it. Things that adult males may not notice are very apparent to children and new shooters. How smooth the bolt is when chambering, whether it tends to bind, how easy the mags are to load, how light the trigger is, the weight, how easy the scope is to get behind, etc. And the big one- RECOIL. They perceive it (or are more honest with themselves about it) WAY more than we do. A 243 may not be anything to us, but the differnace to most kids and women is huge.

Tikka’s in 223’s generally win because the mags are easy to load, chambering is ridiculously easy with no binding, the trigger can be set light, the gun isn’t too heavy, there’s no recoil, and the bullets land behind the crosshairs almost by themselves.





Anyways, just some thoughts.

 

[Yellowknife]

Form, this gets to be a touchy subject, but generally, I subscribe to the same theory. I also think that the age you start a kid on big game is heavily dependent on the mental maturity and personal interest of each kid. Some kids may do fine at 8, but I personally didn't pick up my first big game tag until I was 12, and don't think I lost anything from it.

My son is currently 9 and very very interested in the whole hunting process. In fact he just aced his self study Hunters Ed class this afternoon, with no help from me. He also came along on a couple easy and successful moose hunts the last two years, which broke him into how the whole process goes without adding any undo suffering. He loved it, but was also 100% satisfied to fill the camp pot with grouse. Next year at 10 I may judge him ready to move up, but I may very well also wait. Neither he nor I are in a hurry for the next step as long as there are sufficient grouse around to chase.

Another factor is that we don't have much stand hunting here other than perhaps spring bear baiting (which I don't do), so the ability to hike and shoot from field positions can be critical and requires a certain strength and size. We also have relatively little game that a .223 would be well suited for in interior Alaska, so that isn't the primary purpose of this gun. This gun is strictly to burn ammo and refine marksmanship skills next summer. One thing I strongly remember from my childhood was just how big of jump it was going from a rimfire to a full size .308, and I'd like to add that stop along the way.

Appreciate the input.

 

[16Bore]

Formidilious just wrote the post of all posts.....it gets even better after the 3rd time through.

I'm seeing this on both sides. My gals son falls under the first example. His dad does the shoot it all take it to the processor...yadda, yadda. I got involved with him hunting past year. His mom wanted a spot at her place where he could hunt. So I did all the things that you just said NOT to do. Built his blind and so on. He and his mom hunted opening day, then I offered to come over and take care of the processing for her. Which I thought would be a good opportunity to show him how things should be done. Didn't take them long to connect, so I went over to help. Mind you it was opening day and I postponed my own hunt to help...that's another story.

Anyway, kid whines about everything. Wouldn't touch a blade because "Dad" just does it. No sir. Finally got it hung and he managed to help a little with the hide. Whines about cleanup, refused to do anything else. Kid is 12 by the way. Two days later I come over to butcher. Kid now want to hunt with his Dad on another place. Whines because mom want him back to help me, "if we'd just taken it to the processor like Dad I wouldn't babe to do this stuff"

Wrongo.....

So of course, I take care of it all.

Anyway, he's got a long way to go before earning a hunt with me. That's the way I roll. Kids uncle lets him pull the trigger on a bear. Never touches a thing or eats one bite. Wrong lesson IMHO.

Asked me to take him out for squirrels.

"You going to eat them"

"No"

"Then we're not going"

Fast forward to my 9 year old daughter. First rifle from Santa this year and I've been taking the route you took with you're gal. After reading this, I'm going to be even more "hands off". I did zero the rifle on another trip before she shot it. Never though about it, but that was a missed lesson. Replaced the scope mounts...another missed lesson. Completely disassembled the rifle before shooting to clean/inspect....another missed lesson.

You're 100% correct. They need to be completely involved in every aspect. And as much as I thought I was letting her, I certainly overlooked things.

Luckily, it's still early for her.....


BTW....she helped me build HIS blind, so at least I got that lesson.

And further, 1:8 Tikka 6x MQ is totally the call...mines a peach.

 

[howl]

The 22lr and 6.5 Grendel my kids use have New Frontier polymer lowers. That's about a 4# trigger. I have lighter, but...safety first. You can get a 3# or lighter trigger for $100 bucks and swap it in with little effort other than following along a youtube video.

I would just buy a pair of matching 22lr and 223 ARs by S&W. If you hunt in heavy cover and are seriously in need of blood trails, a 6.5 Grendel bolt and barrel can be got via 65grendel.com. Most any gunsmith these days should not charge very much at all to swap the barrel in. It's five minutes with hand tools. Top three medium game factory loads are Alexander Arms 120gr NBT, Hornady 123gr SST and Federal Fusion 120gr, in that order. That particular Fusion is a tough bullet.

 

[H82miss]

If you would go with an AR for your child, you might want to consider an upgraded trigger. The mil-spec type triggers that come with a lot of lowers/rifles are in the 6 to 8 pound range. Fortunately, AR triggers are easier to replace. My daughter’s lower has a 3.5 pound Geissele SSA-E in it. Also, with 223s/5.56s, a mid length gas system will be softer shooting than a carbine length system.

This is good advice. Mil Spec triggers are heavy, gritty, and difficult to squeeze comfortably for a person with small hands. My daughter's AR also has the Geissele SSA-E trigger and it's great. Another thing to consider is the stock. We added a LaRue Risr to the Magpul CTR stock which enabled my daughter to get a good solid cheek weld and see through the scope properly.