Kimber Montana vs. Tikka T3x Superlite vs. Savage 16 LWH (308)

[AK Troutbum]

Sooo much fun! (5 rounds, 300yds...)

I think that was probably one round that went through tumbling and the other rounds didn't hit paper.


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[elkguide]

Shuttup...... Load development.

Sent from a mountain somewhere, using telepathy.

 

[mtnwrunner]

You're a little high, right.

Yeah, isn't they posed to be in the little black thingy???

Randy

 

[elkguide]

Yeah, isn't they posed to be in the little black thingy???

Randy

Can you believe that he told me to shut up???????

 

[Rorschach]

Kimber Montana 308win: Fourth range session, 2/9/2017

***Update: Fourth range session with Kimber Montana (308win).

Rifle: Kimber Montana 308win (Feb. 2016 date of manufacture)

Conditions: Partly cloudy, 42-44degF, windy (7-10mph, gusts up to 20mph; straight downrange or at 45deg to the left of downrange).

Procedure:

Targets were set at 100yds. Fired five 8-shot groups and one 4-shot group (performance was poor, so I truncated this series of shots).

For each string, the blind four-round magazine was loaded with four rounds, they were fired, then four more were loaded and fired. A period of about ~5min for cooling was allowed between all strings.

Shots were fired while the wind was mostly calm or directed downrange.

Again, strings of 8 were chosen rather than 10 so that the results could be compared with those same groups as in the previous range sessions, which were 8-round groups (due to having run out of the Precision Hunter ammo, originally).

All were fired front of the stock resting on a bag. Rear of stock supported by rice-filled sock.​

Types of ammo (all 308win), in order they were fired:

1) Federal Gold Medal Match 7.62x51 175gr
2) Hornady Precision Hunter 178gr
3) Barnes Vortex 150gr
4) Sako Super Hammerhead 150gr
5) Hornady American Whitetail 150gr
6) Federal Fusion 180gr​

Observations:

I fired several previously-fired types of ammo and several new types of ammo. With one exception, they all grouped pretty similarly, as in the first series of tests with the Kimber.

All groups were right at 2" and roughly circular, except the Barnes Vortex, which in four shots was already at 3".

The inexpensive Hornady American Whitetail ammunition performed unexpectedly well, but it is not the first time I've observed this particular ammo doing well in a rifle (other one was in someone's Mossberg MVP).

Round count is now at 111.​

It is my belief that this demonstrates what this rifle is capable of with factory ammunition, in its current form, straight from the factory. No further testing is planned at the moment.

Feel free to offer critique, agreement, disagreement, other observations, etc.

Links to other range sessions:
Kimber 1 (1/27/17)
Kimber 2 (1/29/17)
Kimber 3 (1/31/17)
Tikka 1 (2/4/17)
Tikka 2 (2/6/17)
Tikka 3 (2/8/17)
Kimber 4 (2/9/17)
Kimber 5 (2/14/17)

Target:

 

[TBossHSauce]

Just curious...and I know you stated no further testing, but I'd try some 165-168gr pills in the gun. I shoot 168gr Barnes TTSX out of my .308s and feel they have the best success.

Just my .02.

 

[AK Troutbum]

Just curious...and I know you stated no further testing, but I'd try some 165-168gr pills in the gun. I shoot 168gr Barnes TTSX out of my .308s and feel they have the best success.

Just my .02.

I'm not surprised. All my Kimber's seem to really like the TTSX's and Nosler AB's.


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[BigWoods]

Only question on the Kimber is why no 150gr Federal Fusion?....They seemed to be the one that consistently shot well in your first outings.

The 150gr American Whitetails shoot real well in my Kimber as well.

Also, it's interesting looking at your shooting here as your light rifle consistency definitely seems to be improving.

 

[rileybassman]

Uniform groups seems to indicate that is about the rifle's capacity... I would venture with some bedding, handloading, etc... it would be pretty easy to cut that in half...

Just curious, I may have missed it, but what is your cleaning procedure? I'm assuming you didn't clean between groups?

I have a savage that shoots 1-1.5" for the first 7-10 shots after cleaning... then like magic, cuts the groups in half when it is dirty...

some guns work opposite... just a thought.

 

[Formidilosus]

This thread highlights just how much cognitive dissonance affects the average person. Why is it hard for some to realize that this Montana (and unmodified Montanas in general) is a 2 moa at best rifle? I've only shot a couple dozen of them, yet I have not seen an unmodified Kimber Montana larger than 223 that was consistently better than 1.5 MOA. People show all kinds of "groups", almost always three shots, and nowhere near the point of aim, as proof that their rifle (any rifle) is ______ accurate.


How how many would bet something truly valuable that this rifle will hit a 2 MOA target with one shot only, with any type of ammo? I wouldn't. Not even close.
[h=1][/h]
Kimbers aren't that hard hard to shoot- their QC is crap. I've seen more than once a 2-3MOA Montana that had nothing done but an exact contour dupe barrel replacement go from that 2-3MOA to 1-1.25MOA with the exact same shooter and ammo.

 

[Rorschach]

I'm not firmly committed to no testing, I just saw no reason to do so after these results. I've tried, on multiple occasions, 165gr bullets, with about the same results.

Just curious...and I know you stated no further testing, but I'd try some 165-168gr pills in the gun. I shoot 168gr Barnes TTSX out of my .308s and feel they have the best success.

Just my .02.

 

[Rorschach]

Ran out of 150gr Fusions. I thought I remembered running out of them, then I looked through my stash this morning and, sure enough, no Fusions.

However, those first 'good' groups were only 3rd groups, using the 150's. Not conclusive in the least, as to whether they shoot well or not.

Only question on the Kimber is why no 150gr Federal Fusion?....They seemed to be the one that consistently shot well in your first outings.

The 150gr American Whitetails shoot real well in my Kimber as well.

Also, it's interesting looking at your shooting here as your light rifle consistency definitely seems to be improving.

 

[Rorschach]

No cleaning at all yet. Just put some oil on a brush last time and scrubbed the barrel a time or two using a little oil, then just swabbed it out and oiled it before putting it away.

I've not used any solvents on it so far. So, it oughta be plenty dirty.

Uniform groups seems to indicate that is about the rifle's capacity... I would venture with some bedding, handloading, etc... it would be pretty easy to cut that in half...

Just curious, I may have missed it, but what is your cleaning procedure? I'm assuming you didn't clean between groups?

I have a savage that shoots 1-1.5" for the first 7-10 shots after cleaning... then like magic, cuts the groups in half when it is dirty...

some guns work opposite... just a thought.

 

[rileybassman]

No cleaning at all yet. Just put some oil on a brush last time and scrubbed the barrel a time or two using a little oil, then just swabbed it out and oiled it before putting it away.

I've not used any solvents on it so far. So, it oughta be plenty dirty.

IF you try shooting it again... I'd give it a good, deep, copper solvent cleaning... let is soak for an hour or two...

Just a thought

 

[Jimbob]

Ran out of 150gr Fusions. I thought I remembered running out of them, then I looked through my stash this morning and, sure enough, no Fusions.

However, those first 'good' groups were only 3rd groups, using the 150's. Not conclusive in the least, as to whether they shoot well or not.

If they were better than others at 3 shot groups than odds are they would be better with 8 shot groups as well.

I see bad groups with the majority of ammo from the tikka and I see bad groups with majority of ammo from the kimber. I think there is a good chance there is a factory bullet that could get the kimber shooting close to the tikka.

 

[Rorschach]

On the odds of 8 vs. 3: statistically, there is very little to support this assertion, the reason being that 3-shot groups yield such low certainty with regards to conclusions that can be drawn. Now, if you're talking shooting three or four 3-shot groups, then you've got some additional data there that would lend an extra measure of certainty that the outcomes of those groups are reliable (i.e., representative of the general 'population' of shots that could be fired from the barrel).

Edit: In other words, it just can't be said with much certainty that, because the 3-shot groups were smaller, the 8-shot groups will be as well.

Are you concluding that, in terms of accuracy, there is parity between these two rifles? If so, I have no idea how that conclusion could be reached from the data I've provided. The statement where you say you "see bad groups with the majority of ammo from the tikka and I see bad groups with majority of ammo from the kimber" is a really bad way to summarize the findings of all of this experimentation, one that makes it seem as if the results were basically the same for both rifles.

If you're assessing 'accuracy' from the extreme spread of the group, then maybe I could see the merit in your statement that both rifles have 'bad' groups with most ammo. However, even in that case, you ignore that the Tikka had a good group with much a much higher number of statistically significant samples taken, i.e., shots fired per group in the 'good' group, whereas the Kimber's best group was a 3-shot group (much lower number of samples taken, therefore the conclusions which can be reached are on more tenuous footing).

Even comparing only 3-shot groups from both rifles, the Tikka had better performance. Again, I'm not sure how the conclusion could be reached that these rifles are basically equal, because "I see bad groups with the majority of ammo from the tikka and I see bad groups with the majority of ammo from the kimber."

And, either way, how many hundreds of $'s more am I going to have to spend to find this factory load that makes the Kimber shoot like the Tikka? You've gotta stop somewhere, right?

If they were better than others at 3 shot groups than odds are they would be better with 8 shot groups as well.

I see bad groups with the majority of ammo from the tikka and I see bad groups with majority of ammo from the kimber. I think there is a good chance there is a factory bullet that could get the kimber shooting close to the tikka.

 

[JWW]

No cleaning at all yet. Just put some oil on a brush last time and scrubbed the barrel a time or two using a little oil, then just swabbed it out and oiled it before putting it away.

I've not used any solvents on it so far. So, it oughta be plenty dirty.

You cleaned it before you shot it for the first time yes? Cleaning your gun with regular solvent will not remove the copper fouling (unless it is jam packed with copper). You can have a nice clean bore that still has copper fouling, which will help to make the gun a more predictable shooter. The copper fouling sort of increases and then you see a level of stability in your shooting for a while. Then groups will go to crap and you have to copper it, but shouldn't be for a long time. If you have never solvent cleaned it, you are very, very brave. Every gun is going to have some small pieces of stuff in the bore from tooling and usually has a coat of oil. Solvent clean it really well, run a jag and patches through it until its clean.

IF you try shooting it again... I'd give it a good, deep, copper solvent cleaning... let is soak for an hour or two...

Just a thought

First of all, I would absolutely not copper a new gun, makes zero sense especially for a hunting gun where you need single shot cold bore predictable accuracy, second I would NEVER leave a copper solvent in your gun overnight. There are more than a few stories of people ruining bores that way, why take the chance on an expensive rifle?

 

[Rorschach]

Only thing that would make me concerned enough to clean it is if someone with some rapport says that cleaning it will take it from 2-3moa down to <1moa. Has that been observed with a new Kimber Montana, or with any new rifle from the factory, ever?

Edit: forgot to answer your first question. No, I didn't clean it before shooting it the first time. And neither did I do this with the Tikka. Just ran a couple oily patches down the barrel while they were in the safe, then swabbed that oil out before shooting them the first time.

You cleaned it before you shot it for the first time yes? Cleaning your gun with regular solvent will not remove the copper fouling (unless it is jam packed with copper). You can have a nice clean bore that still has copper fouling, which will help to make the gun a more predictable shooter. The copper fouling sort of increases and then you see a level of stability in your shooting for a while. Then groups will go to crap and you have to copper it, but shouldn't be for a long time. If you have never solvent cleaned it, you are very, very brave. Every gun is going to have some small pieces of stuff in the bore from tooling and usually has a coat of oil. Solvent clean it really well, run a jag and patches through it until its clean.

 

[JWW]

Only thing that would make me concerned enough to clean it is if someone with some rapport says that cleaning it will take it from 2-3moa down to <1moa. Has that been observed with a new Kimber Montana, or with any new rifle from the factory, ever?

Edit: forgot to answer your first question. No, I didn't clean it before shooting it the first time. And neither did I do this with the Tikka. Just ran a couple oily patches down the barrel while they were in the safe, then swabbed that oil out before shooting them the first time.

So I would absolutely solvent your gun. People often think a "dirty" gun shoots well but it is often a copper fouled gun that shoots well. As I stated, the copper will not come out and you do not want it to. From what I understand from a local rangemaster, Sako's frequently come in due to all of the sudden shooting like crap after 1000 rounds or so, and they are totally fouled. They tend to accumulate copper quicker due to how they're cut. If you notice your Tikka starting to shoot better and better as the round count goes up, it is probably due to copper accumulation (but keep it clean of carbon and lead fouling). Now your Kimber may copper more slowly and thus take a little bit of time to see some stability in the groupings. It may end up grouping better also, but if nothing else more predictably. IF you copper it, who the hell knows what you are going to get, but it will be less accurate and less predictable (unless you plan to copper it everytime after you shoot it). I hope this makes sense, clean it after you shoot it and you will know more or less you are starting at the same place when you head to the range. Don't take someone's advice to leave a caustic chemical recommended at only 15 minutes max in your bore and leave it in your expensive rifle overnight.

 

[Rorschach]

I've used Sweets, so yeah, there's no way I'd leave any chemical in the bore over 5 or 10min, ever. And definitely not something like Sweets, if I ever end up using it again.

So I would absolutely solvent your gun. People often think a "dirty" gun shoots well but it is often a copper fouled gun that shoots well. As I stated, the copper will not come out and you do not want it to. From what I understand from a local rangemaster, Sako's frequently come in due to all of the sudden shooting like crap after 1000 rounds or so, and they are totally fouled. They tend to accumulate copper quicker due to how they're cut. If you notice your Tikka starting to shoot better and better as the round count goes up, it is probably due to copper accumulation (but keep it clean of carbon and lead fouling). Now your Kimber may copper more slowly and thus take a little bit of time to see some stability in the groupings. It may end up grouping better also, but if nothing else more predictably. IF you copper it, who the hell knows what you are going to get, but it will be less accurate and less predictable (unless you plan to copper it everytime after you shoot it). I hope this makes sense, clean it after you shoot it and you will know more or less you are starting at the same place when you head to the range. Don't take someone's advice to leave a caustic chemical recommended at only 15 minutes max in your bore and leave it in your expensive rifle overnight.