Montana Preference Points Planning- 2024 & 2025 Elk Hunts

[rom828q]

Party 1 - correct

Party 2 - this would work except MT isn’t going to let you buy another pp this summer because you applied, leaving you with 2 again going into 2025, your going to get this right I can feel it!

Right, I'm not trying to buy another point this year. We all already have 1 point. So if I apply with one point this year (NOT buying another point this year) and don't draw, therefore I get to keep the one I already have the way I understand it. Then I just buy 1 point next year in '24. And then I buy one in '25 when I put in. Which gives me 3 total. I think that makes sense?

If I draw the license and get the refund this year, I'm in the same spot I would be if I just didn't put in and lost the point this year, and yes would be putting in with 2 points in '25. I'm just out a little money, oh well.

 

[ez_willie]

Right, I'm not trying to buy another point this year. We all already have 1 point. So if I apply with one point this year (NOT buying another point this year) and don't draw, therefore I get to keep the one I already have the way I understand it. Then I just buy 1 point next year in '24. And then I buy one in '25 when I put in. Which gives me 3 total. I think that makes sense?

If I draw the license and get the refund this year, I'm in the same spot I would be if I just didn't put in and lost the point this year, and yes would be putting in with 2 points in '25. I'm just out a little money, oh well.

You will have to apply in 24 with 2 pp or lose them

 

[rom828q]

You will have to apply in 24 with 2 pp or lose them

Why do I have to apply in '24 if I apply this year? My understanding is that if I apply this year, I don't have to apply next year, I can buy a point. Which is where maybe I'm understanding the rules wrong. I thought you have to not apply in consecutive years in order to lose your points.... This is where I don't want to get cute going for a "guarantee" and screw myself. The safest thing seems to be to just bag the points this year and go in to '25 with 2 points. I know I can enter '25 with at least 2 points.
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But, to simplify what I'm trying to do:
2023: Apply with 1 point that I already have, without buying another, and don't draw.
2024: Don't apply. Buy point, giving me 2 points now.
2025: Apply with 2 points that I already have, buy another point while putting in, giving me 3.

In this scenario, I have not violated the rule of not applying in consecutive years, correct? Or wrong?

 

[ez_willie]

Why do I have to apply in '24 if I apply this year? My understanding is that if I apply this year, I don't have to apply next year, I can buy a point. Which is where maybe I'm understanding the rules wrong. I thought you have to not apply in consecutive years in order to lose your points.... This is where I don't want to get cute going for a "guarantee" and screw myself. The safest thing seems to be to just bag the points this year and go in to '25 with 2 points. I know I can enter '25 with at least 2 points.
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But, to simplify what I'm trying to do:
2023: Apply with 1 point that I already have, without buying another, and don't draw.
2024: Don't apply. Buy point, giving me 2 points now.
2025: Apply with 2 points that I already have, buy another point while putting in, giving me 3.

In this scenario, I have not violated the rule of not applying in consecutive years, correct? Or wrong?

Wrong 2023, 2025 are not consecutive years. You’re skipping a year. Think of how many people would be able to save pp and go in with 3 pp which is max.

 

[rom828q]

Wrong 2023, 2025 are not consecutive years. You’re skipping a year. Think of how many people would be able to save pp and go in with 3 pp which is max.

Potentially a lot, but you'd still have to think through how to apply and plan of the specific year, so it'd still be limiting. But, you're probably correct, which was how I originally arrived at the strategy in my initial post. The way they have the rule worded is unfortunate for how it could be interpreted. I just think you can read it as you have to at least apply every other year (meaning you lose them if you don't apply 2 years in a row), instead of: you have to apply in consecutive years. Probably just overthinking it at this point though.

For reference, per Montana Fish & Game website:
"Any accumulated preference points are lost if the applicant does not apply for a nonresident combination license in consecutive years, or if you are successful at obtaining a combination license."

 

[ez_willie]

Potentially a lot, but you'd still have to think through how to apply and plan of the specific year, so it'd still be limiting. But, you're probably correct, which was how I originally arrived at the strategy in my initial post. The way they have the rule worded is unfortunate for how it could be interpreted. I just think you can read it as you have to at least apply every other year (meaning you lose them if you don't apply 2 years in a row), instead of: you have to apply in consecutive years. Probably just overthinking it at this point though.

For reference, per Montana Fish & Game website:
"Any accumulated preference points are lost if the applicant does not apply for a nonresident combination license in consecutive years, or if you are successful at obtaining a combination license."

Yes game and fish really butchered the wording of that rule. If you just search preference points on here you can probably find some other good info. I actually don’t hate the way they have it set up right now. You can literally hunt MT every other year at like 90+% chance for the next few years at least I bet.

 

[rom828q]

Yes game and fish really butchered the wording of that rule. If you just search preference points on here you can probably find some other good info. I actually don’t hate the way they have it set up right now. You can literally hunt MT every other year at like 90+% chance for the next few years at least I bet.

Yeah, that's how I arrived at my initial conclusion was other threads. Just got lost in the weeds again. Appreciate the help! I will likely be proceeding how I laid it out in the original post, where each party goes in with 2 points, in '24 & '25.

 

[ez_willie]

Yeah, that's how I arrived at my initial conclusion was other threads. Just got lost in the weeds again. Appreciate the help! I will likely be proceeding how I laid it out in the original post, where each party goes in with 2 points, in '24 & '25.

No problem, I’m not sure what the application cost is exact but it’s prolly cheaper than eating a PP,(to apply with 1 and not draw) no need to give them anymore $ than you have to. $1200+ is enough!

 

[kitandace77]

Montana has confirmed that you need to apply every year in order to not lose your preference points.

Assuming draw odds remain similar over the next couple of years, there is basically no way to guarantee 3pts going into a draw other than using the bonus outfitter point option or by applying as group to bring your average as low as possible. If you apply as a group, all applying parties need to select the same preference point option. So if you have one point and apply with someone that has zero points, you could either not purchase a point and average 0.5 points, or purchase a point and average 1.5 points, risking drawing.

Keep in mind that last year 97% of people with 2pts drew. If demand on the preference point side of the draw drops even a small amount, those in the 1<2 fractional range will be drawing next year, and potentially some of those with only 1pt. I could easily see this happening given that the preference point cost doubled to $100 and a lot more people likely trying to draw with no preference points given that 73.6% were successful in the random draw last year.

 

[Steve O]

The way I read everything, the only way to get three points was to hunt with an outfitter and add their welfare side deal point…

 

[rom828q]

No problem, I’m not sure what the application cost is exact but it’s prolly cheaper than eating a PP,(to apply with 1 and not draw) no need to give them anymore $ than you have to. $1200+ is enough!

I'm not sure, I'd have to actually look at the $ math. The thing is, for the two of us planning on hunting in 25', we don't want to risk drawing at all this year ideally, as neither of us can go very long this year. The other two, that we are planning on hunting in 24' can likely hunt up to a couple weeks this fall if for some reason they end up drawing this year unplanned.

 

[rom828q]

Montana has confirmed that you need to apply every year in order to not lose your preference points.

Assuming draw odds remain similar over the next couple of years, there is basically no way to guarantee 3pts going into a draw other than using the bonus outfitter point option or by applying as group to bring your average as low as possible. If you apply as a group, all applying parties need to select the same preference point option. So if you have one point and apply with someone that has zero points, you could either not purchase a point and average 0.5 points, or purchase a point and average 1.5 points, risking drawing.

Keep in mind that last year 97% of people with 2pts drew. If demand on the preference point side of the draw drops even a small amount, those in the 1<2 fractional range will be drawing next year, and potentially some of those with only 1pt. I could easily see this happening given that the preference point cost doubled to $100 and a lot more people likely trying to draw with no preference points given that 73.6% were successful in the random draw last year.

Gotcha. Out of curiosity, is there somewhere online where they confirmed that? It'd be nice to have as a reference.

I guess we'll find out what the odds are with 1 point this year! Might end up hunting Montana in '23 and '25 instead haha

 

[ArcherAdam]

That makes sense now...unless you go with an outfitter you likely will not be able to get to 3 points.

You can only get 1 point per year whether off season or in the draw. If you skip a year you loose what you have. If I understand this right the only way to get to that 3rd point without an outfitter is if you fall into that 3% or so who do not draw with 2 points.

So unless you are lucky and get a tag with 0 points or a returned tag, hunting montana without an outfitter is likely a bi-annual affair for most.

Sent from my SM-G996U using Tapatalk

 

[Raghornkiller]

There is one non-outfitter way I know of to reach 3 PP. To do so, you need to minimize your chances of getting drawn via a party application.

Apply as a party of, say, four hunters. Two of you have 1 PP. Find two friends with 0 PP not planning to hunt this year. (Could even be your daughter in college and your 98 year old father - as long as meet the license app qualifications.) Your group average is .500 PP, which all but guarantees you won't get drawn for a combo license. The two of you apply in 2024 and buy PP at application time and you have 3 PP - the max.

(*Applications have non-refundable fees so do the math before jumping in to the game. I think it would be cheaper if in 2023 you only applied for deer combo and didn't get drawn.)

That would get them to 2 points in 2024 not 3

 

[kitandace77]

Gotcha. Out of curiosity, is there somewhere online where they confirmed that? It'd be nice to have as a reference.

I guess we'll find out what the odds are with 1 point this year! Might end up hunting Montana in '23 and '25 instead haha

Go hunt has it on their latest report. I also called Montana to confirm.

 

[Packer9037]

I’m one of those guys with a non-outfitter 3 points this year. Bought a point in 2021 with my app and didn’t draw. Bought a point in 2022 with a party app where the other guy didn’t have a point before applying, group had 1.5 pt average and didn’t draw, and then applied again this year.

I think the best strategy you could have to try to have 3 points is to find 4 other guys who have zero points and who just want to buy a point, apply with them so your average is as low as possible, and don’t draw. It’d be expensive but that’s the only way I see to ensure you have 3 points.

 

[rom828q]

Party 1 (2024 hunt): Apply for elk Combination license this year, 2023, without purchasing a preference point. This gives best odds of not drawing, and the current preference point is maintained (without drawing ideally). In 2024, purchase a preference point and apply, which will put us into the draw with 2 preference points, and ideally a 90+ % chance of drawing the license.

Party 2 (2025 hunt): Do not apply this year, lose the current preference point. Buy a preference point in 2024. Buy a preference point and apply for an elk combination license in 2025, which will put us into the draw with 2 preference points, and ideally a 90+ % chance of drawing the license.

Okay, I know I've overthought this a bit at this point. But for Party 1 with both individuals having 1 point currently, do I even need to apply this year? If I were to just buy a point again this year, they would just have one point again, correct? And then could buy another point next year in 2024 and apply for the draw with 2 points?.... Or does Montana zero out the points completely afterward for not applying, despite paying for a point this year? Stupid question I'm sure, but just for clarity.

Bottom line, I don't care about cost to apply/buy points. I just want to not draw this year, and have highest odds of drawing in '24 & '25.

 

[Erict]

That would get them to 2 points in 2024 not 3

Whoops, good catch - I corrected my original post showing how to get to 3. Thanks

 

[Scottf270]

You fellas are making my head hurt...lol! I'll just say this. I'm gonna apply every year in hopes of drawing a tag. If I draw, I'll find a way to make it work. I'm gonna hunt every tag I can get as often as I can.

 

[kitandace77]

Okay, I know I've overthought this a bit at this point. But for Party 1 with both individuals having 1 point currently, do I even need to apply this year? If I were to just buy a point again this year, they would just have one point again, correct? And then could buy another point next year in 2024 and apply for the draw with 2 points?.... Or does Montana zero out the points completely afterward for not applying, despite paying for a point this year? Stupid question I'm sure, but just for clarity.

Bottom line, I don't care about cost to apply/buy points. I just want to not draw this year, and have highest odds of drawing in '24 & '25.

Yes you’ll be in the same position next year whether you apply with one point this year or if you ditch your current point, buy a point this fall, and another going into 24 draw. Downside is you will cost yourself another hundred bucks plus fees for another preference point. You have slim chances of drawing with one point. It’s probably worth the risk.