NF shv or Swaro z3

[Formidilosus]

Train about to come off the tracks.

Since you’re here Form, do you have a position on scopes that will be babied and how they fall in the mix with the field evals? For example, here in south Texas, a lot of people pull a rifle from the safe, pack up in a decent foam lined case and drive a nice piece of highway to their ranch/lease. There will be some mild dirt roads, but nothing challenging. Does that consumer need to pull options off the table because they failed the evals? Ideally, yes, they buy the best, but should it be thought of as a must?
Edit: essentially, where does the failure threshold come into play, and how do you establish that?

Well, 100% of scopes that have been evaled that lost zero from a single 18” drop, and pretty sure every scope that has lost zero from the single 36” drops, has lost zero just riding in a vehicle. This is not crazy. If we step back and think about it objectively we know that people that baby their gear miss animals they shouldn’t have, and have to adjust zero constantly. It isn’t as if checking zero when you get to hunting camp (and then lots of people having to make an adjustment) is some abnormal thing- it’s normal precisely because scopes lose zero.


So, for me and what I have seen just in the field evals posted here, let alone the massive use that is not logged here, if a scope will not hold zero through the 18” and 36” single drops I wouldn’t buy or use it for anything beyond a squirrel gun because at some point of light use it will lose zero.

 

[Formidilosus]

"PAK" is the OP of this thread and has two posts in it including the original. I can't seem to find in his posts a mention of zero retention or hard use.

It’s an aiming device. Its sole purpose is to steer bullets to a specific point. If a scope doesn’t hold zero it utterly useless as an aiming device. I’m not even sure how one argues against that?

In fact he said he's hunting mainly from tree stands stationary-style. But because I suggested in a reply that NF isn't the end-all-be-all of zero retention/tracking, it regrettably derailed the thread and that's my bad. When to be honest it's not particularly relevant to the OP in the first place. Tracking should be good and zero retention should also be good. He is also not deploying to Afghanistan, he's walking to a tree stand and sitting in it.

You are the one using hyperbole. The scopes you mention- most scopes made actually, lose zero from the exact use the OP has- just riding in a padded seat causes zero shifts frequently.

The OP have two scopes as an option- one is total joke of an aiming device, maybe the most fragile mainline scope made- this is objectively provable; and one is a very reliable, durable aiming device that consistently works correctly at it sole purpose.
Having used, hunted with, and “tested” lots of Z3’s I would 100% rather a Leupold VX-3. That isn’t saying much of course.

 

[Tl15]

Well, 100% of scopes that have been evaled that lost zero from a single 18” drop, and pretty sure every scope that has lost zero from the single 36” drops, has lost zero just riding in a vehicle. This is not crazy. If we step back and think about it objectively we know that people that baby their gear miss animals they shouldn’t have, and have to adjust zero constantly. It isn’t as if checking zero when you get to hunting camp (and then lots of people having to make an adjustment) is some abnormal thing- it’s normal precisely because scopes lose zero.


So, for me and what I have seen just in the field evals posted here, let alone the massive use that is not logged here, if a scope will not hold zero through the 18” and 36” single drops I wouldn’t buy or use it for anything beyond a squirrel gun because at some point of light use it will lose zero.

Appreciate the answer. So, for clarity as to your position, it’s a binary proposition? If it doesn’t at minimum pass through the drops, it’s an absolute no?

 

[Formidilosus]

Appreciate the answer. So, for clarity as to your position, it’s a binary proposition? If it doesn’t at minimum pass through the drops, it’s an absolute no?

For me yes, because I haven’t seen an exception that I can remember. Of course one can use anything and kill animals- I have killed several hundred game animals with Walmart blister pack BSA’s, Tascos, Simmons, and Bushnells. I also missed and wounded animals I should not have, and nearly every time I checked zero I would need to adjust at least a few clicks.
That was normal, I didn’t know better and everyone I was around said it was normal as they had to do it as well. Even when I got my first “real”scope which was a Leupold Vari-X II 6-18x, I was shooting hundreds of rounds a year, and I believe in 8-9 years I sent it back to be repaired 6 times.
Ironically, it was also a Leupold (Mark4 10x M3A) that showed me that scopes can hold zero and not fail. Once I experienced scopes that work, there was no going back.

 

[JohnJohnson]

You are the one using hyperbole. The scopes you mention- most scopes made actually, lose zero from the exact use the OP has- just riding in a padded seat causes zero shifts frequently.

I don't mean to cause offense but it does vary between individual units. I bought my LHT 4.5-22 before reading your thread and was genuinely nervous about taking it on my AZ hunt but decided to try it out. I flew with it out there, we took the road from hell to our main glassing point each time (almost knocked myself out on the side of the vehicle 3-4 times), and due to my idiocy it also got dropped/dragged across the ground with the pack it was strapped to. My whole action/scope had a layer of dirt and some deep scratches from the whole deal. It held zero perfectly when I went to go double check it at 100, 400, 500, and 600. And then I killed a deer at 400 with it. It may very well be that I got a rare one that doesn't lose zero, that is always a possibility.

Also I don't see field evals for most of the scopes I mentioned around the SHV price point. Nothing for Burris XTR2 or XTR3, SWFA 5-20, or Bushnell LRHS2/HDMR. I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to do with that. And as an aside, is there some sort of life hack for how I should be transporting a rifle in a vehicle to minimize the chance of issues?

The OP have two scopes as an option- one is total joke of an aiming device, maybe the most fragile mainline scope made- this is objectively provable; and one is a very reliable, durable aiming device that consistently works correctly at it sole purpose.
Having used, hunted with, and “tested” lots of Z3’s I would 100% rather a Leupold VX-3. That isn’t saying much of course.

Woah! I denounce any allegations that I ever advocated for the Z3. I said to get the SHV in my first post of the thread. We're definitely in agreement on that.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don't mean to cause offense but it does vary between individual units. I bought my LHT 4.5-22 before reading your thread and was genuinely nervous about taking it on my AZ hunt but decided to try it out. I flew with it out there, we took the road from hell to our main glassing point each time (almost knocked myself out on the side of the vehicle 3-4 times), and due to my idiocy it also got dropped/dragged across the ground with the pack it was strapped to. My whole action/scope had a layer of dirt and some deep scratches from the whole deal. It held zero perfectly when I went to go double check it at 100, 400, 500, and 600. And then I killed a deer at 400 with it. It may very well be that I got a rare one that doesn't lose zero, that is always a possibility.

Of course there may be some that work. I haven’t seen one in quite a few that didn’t have at least one issue through a week of shooting and use in the mountains.

I would genuinely like to see one perform well. Would you be willing to send it in for the eval?

No one wants Leupold, Vortex- all scopes to actually work more than I.

Also I don't see field evals for most of the scopes I mentioned around the SHV price point. Nothing for Burris XTR2 or XTR3, SWFA 5-20, or Bushnell LRHS2/HDMR. I'm not quite sure what I'm supposed to do with that.

SHV’s and SWFA’s haven’t been evaled because they are known commodities. Again given something resembling limited time and resources (because any scope that works is shot and used for 3,000 rounds) it hasn’t been a priority. Right now there are seven (7) scopes- Zeiss LRP S3, Trijicon Credo 2.5-15x, SWFA 6x, a March, and two prototypes- that are “passing”; and two scopes coming that will likely do well- and each of them has to be shot until failure or 3,000 rounds.
So either we add scopes that have an almost guaranteed pass rate- most NF, SWFA 5-20x, etc., and some that have a good probability of being fine- Bushnell LRHS/HDMR/etc. which means that likely all of them will get used for 3,000 rounds; or we use scopes that have question marks on them.

It seems to be a better service for the community and offering more information to use unknown, or questionable scopes.

And as an aside, is there some sort of life hack for how I should be transporting a rifle in a vehicle to minimize the chance of issues?

I wish. It can’t get much more cushy than a padded seat in a truck.

Woah! I denounce any allegations that I ever advocated for the Z3. I said to get the SHV in my first post of the thread. We're definitely in agreement on that.

Haha. You are correct, and I did not intend to infer that you did.

 

[JohnJohnson]

I would genuinely like to see one perform well. Would you be willing to send it in for the eval?

I don't want to disconnect it from the rifle and will still be hunting with it. To be honest I don't even know if it would pass the actual evaluation. All I know is that there's basically no way I'm going to be harder on that scope than that hunt was and it handled that so it's good enough for me. On top of what I mentioned I also slipped and fell a couple of times with it strapped to the side of my pack because I underestimated Arizona's topography and chose not to bring my trekking poles like a dumbass. It's good enough for my uses but I can't definitively say it'd pass that specific test.

 

[Formidilosus]

I don't want to disconnect it from the rifle and will still be hunting with it. To be honest I don't even know if it would pass the actual evaluation. All I know is that there's basically no way I'm going to be harder on that scope than that hunt was and it handled that so it's good enough for me. On top of what I mentioned I also slipped and fell a couple of times with it strapped to the side of my pack because I underestimated Arizona's topography and chose not to bring my trekking poles like a dumbass. It's good enough for my uses but I can't definitively say it'd pass that specific test.

After the season? I will happily send you a scope to use until yours comes back.

 

[Firth]

After the season? I will happily send you a scope to use until yours comes back.

You should totally take him up and see if the ZP5 is on the table for the replacement optic.

 

[JohnJohnson]

After the season? I will happily send you a scope to use until yours comes back.

I'm not invested enough to be honest. That particular LHT is now a known enough quantity for me that I'm happy with it. If anything the scope I wonder more about is the Razor Gen 3 I have coming in but even for that I'll find out eventually through my own use whether it is robust enough to take the sort of use I'll ask of it. I don't suppose you tested a second one after the one that had that weird wandering zero?

 

[Formidilosus]

I'm not invested enough to be honest. That particular LHT is now a known enough quantity for me that I'm happy with it.

Understood.

If anything the scope I wonder more about is the Razor Gen 3 I have coming in but even for that I'll find out eventually through my own use whether it is robust enough to take the sort of use I'll ask of it. I don't suppose you tested a second one after the one that had that weird wandering zero?

Not for the Evals here. I have seen quite a few Gen 3 Razors, and while generally they are the best ones Vortex has made, the behavior of them has been consistent with the one in the eval.

 

[dirtytough]

a March,

Which March?

 

[Pickettpuncher]

I'm not invested enough to be honest. That particular LHT is now a known enough quantity for me that I'm happy with it. If anything the scope I wonder more about is the Razor Gen 3 I have coming in but even for that I'll find out eventually through my own use whether it is robust enough to take the sort of use I'll ask of it. I don't suppose you tested a second one after the one that had that weird wandering zero?

I used to be pretty dismissive of the evals. Drop tests seemed pretty overkill. Some of it was denial. But once I started actually paying attention to the evals, and listened to the podcast explaining why, totally changed my mind. No one wants to admit their lht or vx5 has a known problem. It was stated in the podcast, if the scope in the eval gets tested and passes, odds are pretty good it’s reliable. If one fails, odds aren’t so good. It’s the simple odds of getting the one failure. And also the fact of checking multiple scopes.

 

[Formidilosus]

Which March?

This one is the FX 4.5-28x FFP model. The eval thread will get posted today. Initially acted wonky, but magically started working correctly and is holding fine so far.

 

[Formidilosus]

You should totally take him up and see if the ZP5 is on the table for the replacement optic.

Ya no. That scope isn’t coming off that rifle unless it breaks.

 

[Firth]

Ya no. That scope isn’t coming off that rifle unless it breaks.

Haha. It never hurts to try.

After watching THLR on YouTube and reading what you have to say about it I've been itching to try one out.

 

[Formidilosus]

Haha. It never hurts to try.

After watching THLR on YouTube and reading what you have to say about it I've been itching to try one out.

No doubt. That whole rifle system is the most on demand hitting/killing one I’ve shot out to 900’ish yards.

 

[Trr15]

I’m a big fan of Swaro optics but will NEVER own another one of their turret scopes.

 

[SDHNTR]

Which March?

Yes! Where’s the dirt on this?

 

[PAK]

I have and use both for different applications. SHV = reliability. Z3 = lighter with a slight edge to glass also. I put a SHV on my western back pack rig for the reliability with if an unfortunate gun scope accident. I use the Z3 scoped rifle every other home (eastern) non treeshand hunting trip. I have multiple z3 scopes installed and am 100% confident in both the Z3 & SHV. If ever any chance to dial you’ll want the SHV, if no dial go Z3. Let us know what you decided and the reason. Good luck with your project.

After reading through this thread, looking at several recommendations and a great conversation with Doug, I’m gouging pull the trigger on the NF. I believe for me it will be the perfect setup and should last me for many years to come.
Thanks for all the replies and insight