Spotting your shots

[hereinaz]

Awesome pics. I was playing around this weekend with thumb position and trying to see what reduced the tension the most and gave me the best control. I was almost correct in hand placement!!!!! Now I can get it right.

Do what works best for you. I can’t do the PRS type position, and so my thumb while in a relaxed position for me kinda drapes over a little bit. And, I learned not to fully grip with my whole thumb but more lock my hand muscles but not flex my thumb at the tip.

Keeping as many muscles relaxed as possible is what I learned to do. I found I was clenching my core, butt and hamstrings even in prone. Learning to relax cut reticle wobble and absorbed more recoil.

 

[Kdye01]

When it comes to “position” there are numerous variables and “ways” to shoot.

There are lots of ways that work, but they might be a “cheat” that works prone with a bipod like loading forward hard to trap the rifle. But, you can’t trap the same way on a tripod. And, bench rear shooters want the rifle to recoil and slide back over the front and rear rest. Heavy PRS rifles with brakes and light recoiling cartridges can be free recoiled off barricades.

So, the best thing is to learn the principles and then apply techniques to your rifle, cartridge, and position.

The principles I think of in every shooting position are:

1: recoil starts when the firing pin falls, so freeze all movement, including the trigger finger, because a brake or suppressor doesn’t start to mitigate recoil until the bullet leaves the barrel.
2: recoil travels the path of least resistance, angles and anything touching the rifle influences the direction the rifle moves.
3: a right twist rifle will twist to the left, so block torque that wants to travel that way
4: anything touching the rifle is part of the rifle system and needs to be considered how it will affect the movement of recoil
5: focus the rifle system to absorb recoil in a direct line rearward, eliminating any movement or potential for bounce or push not directly in line with the bore
6: control the rifle as it rebounds forward
7: get as much body weight in front of the rifle, and relax like a bag of meat to absorb the recoil, don’t be like a stiff steel block that makes the rifle bounce
8: use minimum amount of force necessary to control the rifle, gripping and pulling the rifle into your shoulder hard will lead to unintended movement as your muscles are under more tension and contraction.

The advice for a neutral thumb can be analyzed with the principles. In PRS the thumb can rest on the side because of free recoil techniques with a low recoiling rifle system. That is the least amount of influence.

But, a higher recoiling hunting rifle it can’t be free recoiled. So, a thumb on top is best, because it is inline with the bore to control the rifle movement. And, it is more isolated from the trigger finger so you can get a clean press at 90 degrees.

I have found that different positions create different influences on the rifle, and if I don’t practice them, I can control my rifle. So, I nearly exclusively shoot off my tripod in the field and practice it.

Well said!

 

[hereinaz]

Modern Day Sniper and Phil Velayo are solid resources. Natural point of aim is huge in my opinion. Getting straight in line behind the rifle with a good connection like phil talks about in the tagged video earlier and having a solid natural point of aim are what I focus on. Gun wants to follow the path of least resistance. I think some guys try to stop the recoil by over loading the gun or putting too much pressure. Better off to accept that the gun is going to recoil no matter what and if you have a good natural aim, it is going to settle back down where it started.

I think NPA is huge as well. As I think about your comment, makes sense that if we are having to muscle the rifle into position, as soon as recoil starts moving we are gonna push and pull the rifle around.

 

[Formidilosus]

I imagine you don’t index like this? I index with “conventional” stock grip and then move thumb and finger to firing position together as I take the safety off. Is that what you do, or you you index with neutral thumb as well?

“Index” as in establish the grip?

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

“Index” as in establish the grip?

Sorry. Bad term probably. Pointing your rifle towards the target and then establishing a sight picture.

 

[mt terry d]

"Spotting your shot"

I think I used too broad a term as it appears there are 2 different things being discussed here.

One is seeing where the shot hit ( past tense)

Two is seeing the impact happen.

I don't know how one can actually see the impact happen at 100 yards with
a hunting weight (< 10#) rifle shooting @ 3000 fps. from a field position
Maybe one can?

I'm thinking that, done correctly, one can regain sight picture of the target/animal
after recoil and actually see the impact happen at say 350 yards or better. That's what
I am, at this point, primarily interested in but all info is good.

Hey, I'm here to learn.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

You can absolutely see splash inside of 350 yards. I could see it at 25 yards putting some 223 over the chronograph

 

[mt terry d]

Excuse my ignorance but what is "splash"?

 

[amassi]

Excuse my ignorance but what is "splash"?

Impacts on targets or on dirt
Borrowed from the parlance of indirect fire missions I reckon


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Marbles]

I will be playing around with this more as soon as my Tikka's come back from being cut and threaded, so appreciate all the answers.

 

[justinspicher]

I would say this is achieved by have a purpose when shooting and shooting more often in “non standard” range applications. As a whole, most folks I listen to just don’t have enough shooting experience to really understand what they are doing, but have seen it on YouTube…..

I would say that a person who wants to master shooting should pick a caliber and stick with it, then build a rifle around that caliber, that fits THEIR needs, not what is trending on social media. Follow that up with an intense training schedule to include dry fires, but only focus on the fundamentals. Then add steps or progression such as distance, positions and finally, spotting shots.

Trying to do it all every time you go to the range is futile, your wasting time and ammo.

 

[TX_Diver]

What is considered "acceptable" reticle movement generally?

At 100 w/ a 6.5cm prone w/ bipod and rear bag I'm still ending up a few inches up/left (significantly better than previous though so I'm going to keep working on it).

I will try changing up the thumb position and see if that helps too. I don't think I've had it very "neutral" so far.

 

[hereinaz]

What is considered "acceptable" reticle movement generally?

At 100 w/ a 6.5cm prone w/ bipod and rear bag I'm still ending up a few inches up/left (significantly better than previous though so I'm going to keep working on it).

I will try changing up the thumb position and see if that helps too. I don't think I've had it very "neutral" so far.

You are doing pretty dang good, keeping it in the scope is acceptable to me with my level and ability to train. I am setting a goal to work at it for a year. Pro level is much harder.

If the barrel points left, you are probably pushing the stock to the right or at least you position leaves an opening for it to move.

Could be the thumb pressure.

Most right handlers need to get their body square by bringing their butt to the right so that the bore line would split a dude’s right testicle. The angle opens the rifle butt to escape by sliding out.

And, watch how much pressure you are putting with your face. Cheek pressure pushes the stock down and to the right—barrel moves up and left.

I quit using a cheek weld and adjustable cheek piece because as I tested every part of my position, I found that it created the movement you are seeing.

I index off my jaw and set up my rifle so eye relief is automatic.

Using your non shooting hand to grip the butt is one way to keep control of the stock to eliminate lateral movement.

Now, guys can use hard cheek pressure, but if they do they have a solid rear position that counters the pressure. Sometimes they have learned to push with their shooting hand, etc.

Lots of factors go into it, maybe this helps, but using the principals of Newtonian physics, every action equal and opposite reaction, body at rest stays at rest, etc. has helped me think through how I am influencing the rifle.

 

[mt terry d]

What is considered "acceptable" reticle movement generally?

At 100 w/ a 6.5cm prone w/ bipod and rear bag I'm still ending up a few inches up/left

ResearchinStuff​

You can absolutely see splash inside of 350 yards. I could see it at 25 yards putting some 223 over the chronograph

This is what I'm having trouble wrapping my head around.

Doesnt the bullet strike well before the rifle has settled back down from recoil?
Correct me if I'm wrong because I'm not a math whiz like Pa Kettle or Jethro Bodine,
but a bullet travelling 2800 fps covers 75 feet in @ 0.027 seconds, no? Seems it takes longer than
that for the rifle to settle back down.

Or does correct technique enable you to keep the sight picture constantly in sight/focus while the rifle recoils; the scope never jumps out of line with the target?

 

[Formidilosus]

Or does correct technique enable you to keep the sight picture constantly in sight/focus while the rifle recoils; the scope never jumps out of line with the target?

This is correct.

 

[mt terry d]

Cool.
Man, I've a lot of work to do!

 

[DJL2]

1: recoil starts when the firing pin falls, so freeze all movement, including the trigger finger, because a brake or suppressor doesn’t start to mitigate recoil until the bullet leaves the barrel.

I see this catch a lot of people out. They stop feeling the recoil beat them up and so they stop working to manage the recoil.

 

[mt terry d]

Watching this video starting @ 1:21 it appears there's no way he can see the hit as the target
goes completely out of view in the scope camera. His rifle doesn't appear to recoil much either.


I'd like a show of hands from those here who can actually see the impact as it happens at 100 yards
( not counting heavy target rifles, more like < 10# or so) .

Heck, speak up if you can watch the impact at 300 yards.

Please don't anyone infer anything by my questions; I'm trying to learn and understand.

 

[DJL2]

You now know why guys like @Formidilosus and @pwngator advocate for .223 Rem, 6 Creed, and 6.5 Creed. There‘s only two options for spotting your shots: never come off the target; recover rapidly and consistently enough to pick up trace/original POA prior o impact.

When I owned them, I did a fair amount of shooting with my .30-06 and 7mm Rem Mag. About 10 lbs on the former, and 8.5 lbs on the latter. As a credit to Tikka, that latter rifle produced slightly over 1 MOA for ten shots with several brands of factory ammo (don’t know if I saved any of those pictures). I could print small groups with either gun. However, I’d be lying to you if I told you I could keep the target centered in the glass at 100 yds. Spotting through recoil required low magnification (2x to 4x? Sure. 15x+? Nope.) and large FoV.

 

[Carl Ross]

There's a bunch of factors for spotting in general, and especially spotting up close:

The mechanical:
Total recoil impulse (rifle weight is a factor, but then chambering,load, and muzzle device round out the equation)
Stock geometry
Field of view (and to a lesser extent scope eyebox forgiveness)
Muzzle device - specifically reducing muzzle rise vs the previously mentioned recoil

The driver:
Position
How the rifle is driven
Does the shooter blink at the shot (lots do)
Physical mass of the shooter

***Lists not intended to be in order of significance***

I know people who claim they watch bullets enter the paper at 100 yds with PRS style setups. I don't, but I believe they do. By 300 yds I watch my own impacts from terrible positions with a PRS setup, or good positions with a lighter caliber hunting rifle with a good stock design.