why no waterproof pack?

[Kevin_t]

With the availability of waterproof stuff sacks, IMO there isn't a compelling reason for a water-proof pack.

Yes there is. Stuff sacks add weight as does a wet pack. A pack that is not holding water is so much easier to deal with IMO

 

[SDHNTR]

Yes there is. Stuff sacks add weight as does a wet pack. A pack that is not holding water is so much easier to deal with IMO

Bingo!

 

[n_watson22]

The main compartment on the exo pack is waterproof too, I have never tested it out though

 

[DaveC]

Interesting. Rockchucker, did you get my PM? I need to learn more about Paradox. Also, I just came back from a trip where it literally rained non stop for 5 straight days. I need more than 15 min before I get too excited.

When my Paradox spends a full day getting firehosed by waves and sitting in 4 inches of standing water in my open packraft it accumulates around a cup of water in the bottom. Backpacking in all day rain maybe a few teaspoons sneak inside. This is without sealed seams.

 

[larryschwartz]

SDHNTR,

Although your question seems like a simple one, in reality it isn't and neither is the answer. There are many challenges that come with stopping water from seeping into a packs body and many factors that affect a packs waterproofness.

Fabric: yes, you can apply waterproofing to the fabric or make a pack from a waterproof fabric. Unfortunately, waterproofing needs to be reapplied periodically, fabric stretches (even waterproof fabric) over time or under the stress of a full load which makes small gaps in the fabric that water can seep in through. Where the fabric is stretched or pulled tight against you, like the top of your rain jacket where it always gets wet first, it is also more likely to have water leak in. Over time anything made of woven material will stretch and be less watertight, it's just a fact of life. Waterproofing it will help solve the problem of a wetted out pack absorbing a few pounds of water weight, so just refresh it each season.

Seams: if seams are not sealed then water can seep in through gaps between the two pieces of fabric or through the pinholes from the stitching. It can be be forced in by the pressure of the rain. This can be addressed by sealing the seams either with a liquid sealant applied after construction or by heat welding a waterproof tape sealer behind them during construction. As noted above, over time fabric, and seams, stretch so you may need to re-seal the seams as the pack gets older. It's just regular preventative maintenance.

Zippers: Many pack designs include zippers for easier access to the interior of the pack or into external pockets. From a practical perspective it it impossble to make a waterproof zipper that will also be easy to open and close; water will get in. So, if you like zippers on your pack bag body then water will get into the pack bag. If you don't like or want zippers then you have one less way for water to get into your pack bag.

Pack Design: the design of the pack also has a lot to do with how easy or hard it is for water to get into the pack bag. As noted above, zippers will be an easy entery point. The more seams you have andthe more stitching you have the greater the chance that water will get in. Especially over time as seams get pulled ever so slightly to form gaps that water can leak in through. The same stretching of the fabric over time will make the pinholes from the stitching get bigger which gives another place where water can seep in. The design of the lid or flap that goes over the top of the pack also has a lot to do with how easy or hard it is for wind blown rain to find access to the interior of the pack. A lid or flap that completely encompasses the top of the pack will do a better job than one that just lays over the top and does not cover the sides. Roll top bags are an obvious design choice for helping to keep water out.

Rain itself: some, but not all of us, know that water under pressure, as when it is hitting fabric during a rain storm, has a much greater ability to penetrate anything made of fabric than water just laying on the surface of the fabric.

The Paradox line of packs may very well meet your needs and solve your problem, but its water proofness comes not just from its fabric but also from its simple/slick design. They made the decision to have one large top loading bag into which you put most or all of your stuff. No zippers, no attachment points or molle on the outside, just straps for adding on a Talon (which is a large pocket that can act like a day pack or external pocket). It is a very good design and it obviously works well based on the comments we have seen so far. If the design works for you then you may have found your dream pack. If you want or need more features in your pack then going with a waterproofing spray on your existing pack and contractor bags inside to protect your gear from the wet will likely be your best choice.

I know this was kind of long winded but I hope it helped put it all into perspective.

Larry

 

[MattB]

Yes there is. Stuff sacks add weight as does a wet pack. A pack that is not holding water is so much easier to deal with IMO

The weight penalty of stuff sacks in this day and age is minimal (i.e. StS has a full pack liner that is 4.4 oz. and cuben is even lighter than silnylon), and for me they help with organization as well. Moreover, if I make camp and leave gear there (i.e. sleeping bag, extra clothes) I strongly prefer to have protection for the gear I leave as well as the gear I carry, so waterproof stuff sacks adds versatility. As the OP figured out, it is really important to keep your gear dry on an unsupported hunt.

Those who run a water bladder inside their packs will want to protect their gear from water regardless of the exterior pack material. I see that with the Paradox packs they have an external accessory for a bladder, but at least for me that puts the water in about the worst possible spot - farthest from your back and right where my bow would get strapped to the pack which could create a host of issues. The bottom line is that it is all about tradeoffs.

There isn't a "right" answer to how to do it, but for me the waterproofness of the pack is a low priority because the mitigant is easy and provides me additional functionality.

 

[SDHNTR]

Thanks Larry. I understand that 100% waterproof is not totally possible, but I'd be happy just with a pack fabric that didn't absorb water. Any degree of waterproofness for the contents would just be a bonus. A big pack with saturated fabric is at least an extra 10 pounds.

 

[Kevin_t]

Agreed there is no right or wrong. You can also put a bladder between frame and pack bag on the paradox , it is just a bit more hassle vs hydration pouch on a talon and anytime you carry water in the interior there is some risk

 

[SDHNTR]

The weight penalty of stuff sacks in this day and age is minimal (i.e. StS has a full pack liner that is 4.4 oz. and cuben is even lighter than silnylon), and for me they help with organization as well. Moreover, if I make camp and leave gear there (i.e. sleeping bag, extra clothes) I strongly prefer to have protection for the gear I leave as well as the gear I carry, so waterproof stuff sacks adds versatility. As the OP figured out, it is really important to keep your gear dry on an unsupported hunt.

Those who run a water bladder inside their packs will want to protect their gear from water regardless of the exterior pack material. I see that with the Paradox packs they have an external accessory for a bladder, but at least for me that puts the water in about the worst possible spot - farthest from your back and right where my bow would get strapped to the pack which could create a host of issues. The bottom line is that it is all about tradeoffs.

There isn't a "right" answer to how to do it, but for me the waterproofness of the pack is a low priority because the mitigant is easy and provides me additional functionality.

Understood and I mostly agree. Especially about ditching your stuff in bags at camp and wanting protection for them. But again, just having fabric that didn't absorb water, and the associated increased weight would be an advantage. Dealing with a cold and clammy, soaked pack just sucks.

 

[larryschwartz]

Thanks Larry. I understand that 100% waterproof is not totally possible, but I'd be happy just with a pack fabric that didn't absorb water. Any degree of waterproofness for the contents would just be a bonus. A big pack with saturated fabric is at least an extra 10 pounds.

SDHNTR,

I hear ya'. The best solution I know of is to get a canvas waterproofing spray like Camp Dry or something from NikWax to treat the outside of your pack bag. Just do it each year just like you waterproof leather boots each year.

 

[BCsteve]

Any suggestion on a product to treat your pack maybe not to make it waterproof but at least repel water and avoid absorption?

 

[Stid2677]

Kifaru KU5200, these packs are out of production, but they can still be bought used. The pack is made from the same material they use on their Tipis. Seamed sealed mine and have never had anything get wet in it. Packed out 3 Rams with it and have hunted with it for many years.

The wife's favorite too.

 

[mtnclimber]

i don't like the whole lining the inside of the pack thing. When that pack gets wet it adds weight. And some packs don't dry out during a hunt. since i started using a pack cover with a gunport i don't mind the rain cover at all.

 

[Backpack Hunter]

Actually, in my testing a rolltop VX21 bag with a side zip survived a controlled 15 minute drenching rain with no water penetration.

Honestly I was a bit surprised. I thought water would get in through the side zip but none did. I attribute that mostly to the rain flap and compression system holding the flap down.

Rolltop style bags are inherently more waterproof as well.

I agree rolltops fare better, and I'm sure your pack performed well (better than others even) in your test. I just tend to find that water always finds the path of least resistance and will eventually get into a pack. A roll top without a zipper, all others things being equal, will perform better than one with a zipper.

 

[luke moffat]

A big pack with saturated fabric is at least an extra 10 pounds.

While I won't argue that having a packbag made out of a material that won't absorb water would be nice, but lets be realistic here. 10+ pounds of water would mean you would have to get mroe than 1.25 gallons of water rung out of the packbag when squeezed.

I put my highcamp 7K' into the shower this spring just to see what the difference was I wanna say the difference from a bone dry packbag to once that was sopping wet was less than 2 pounds (1 quart).

Personally for me the weight difference for me to use cuben fiber dry bags for my sleeping bags, extra socks and puffy gear is worth it. For 3 oz I can have 2 very large cuben bags (1 for my sleeping quilt or bag and pad) and one for my puffy gear and extra socks). 3 oz of cheap insurance for sure. If I did even use a roll top Paradox pack I would still pack my gear in these bags as a slip crossing a creek or a flip in a packraft could mean the whole pack is submerged and I'd feel pretty silly trying to save 3 oz just cause I was relying on a waterproof pack bag.

That and I wouldn't want my wet rain gear in the same bag as my sleeping bag or puffy gear, or heaven forbid my bladder spring a leak (not that thats ever happened )

I do agree though having a pack wouldn't absorb water would be pretty cool, especially if only trying to protect it again constant rain. And the Paradox pack is likely the best option currently sold when looking for a lightweight, backpack hunting, nearly fully completely waterproof packbag that won't absorb water. Just found the bag layout for me can't hold a candle to the packbag I have now as far as what and how I use it. But for you SDHNTR it sounds like it could be just the option for sure.

 

[RockChucker30]

SDHNTR,

Although your question seems like a simple one, in reality it isn't and neither is the answer. There are many challenges that come with stopping water from seeping into a packs body and many factors that affect a packs waterproofness.

Fabric: yes, you can apply waterproofing to the fabric or make a pack from a waterproof fabric. Unfortunately, waterproofing needs to be reapplied periodically, fabric stretches (even waterproof fabric) over time or under the stress of a full load which makes small gaps in the fabric that water can seep in through. Where the fabric is stretched or pulled tight against you, like the top of your rain jacket where it always gets wet first, it is also more likely to have water leak in. Over time anything made of woven material will stretch and be less watertight, it's just a fact of life. Waterproofing it will help solve the problem of a wetted out pack absorbing a few pounds of water weight, so just refresh it each season.

X-Pac is waterproof for the life of the fabric. It is a 4 ply laminate including a PET film which provides the waterproofness. X-Pac was developed in the sailcloth industry where a light, waterproof fabric that doesn't absorb much water is very desirable.

Zippers: Many pack designs include zippers for easier access to the interior of the pack or into external pockets. From a practical perspective it it impossble to make a waterproof zipper that will also be easy to open and close; water will get in. So, if you like zippers on your pack bag body then water will get into the pack bag. If you don't like or want zippers then you have one less way for water to get into your pack bag.

In my testing our side zips have performed very well in a vertical orientation (as if the pack is worn). Laid down so water could flow into the rain flap I suspect that water would penetrate a bit more.

 

[chopchop]

this is gonna sound like capt. obvious, but in my field experience waterproof packs only stay waterproof until you open them once. then you have a really big bag that is excellent at holding water in, so whatever is at the bottom of your pack sits in an eighth of an inch of water for a few hours until your next stop.

i really like the idea, but haven't had much luck personally

 

[snowcamoman]

Drain plugs in the bottom of the pack would resolve standing water.

 

[Wrongside]

I wasn't a huge fan of XPac originally, but have definitely been impressed with the fabrics performance thus far.

 

[Rizzy]

A simple water proof lid with a piece that rolls down the back of the pack would be great 80% of the time for me