High Hit Bull - Not Recovered (Yet)

[N Corey]

Most of us aren’t Dr’s so the mention of the dead zone or void is just a reference to the area with no vitals that goes from the physical top of the back down to the lungs. On an elk this is going to be the top 6” to 8” or so of the animal.

 

[Formidilosus]

Most of us aren’t Dr’s so the mention of the dead zone or void is just a reference to the area with no vitals that goes from the physical top of the back down to the lungs. On an elk this is going to be the top 6” to 8” or so of the animal.

In my experience the vast majority of people believe that their is a gap between the top of the lungs, and the bottom of the spine- that it is possible to get an arrow above the lungs but below the spine. Which of course, is medically not possible.

 

[ckleeves]

Most of us aren’t Dr’s so the mention of the dead zone or void is just a reference to the area with no vitals that goes from the physical top of the back down to the lungs. On an elk this is going to be the top 6” to 8” or so of the animal.

So a spine shot is referred to as “shot in the void”?


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[N Corey]

I think what happens most of the time on a high shot that may be spine area the arrow deflects and goes over the spine and doesn’t cause damage. That’s just my opinion but you don’t hear of too many cases where someone hits an elk high with an arrow and they drop in their tracks which would be the case from a solid spinal shot.

 

[jmez]

A lot of semantics involved in these discussions. Any area that does not contain "vitals" could be considered a void. Anything above the chest cavity and spinal cord itself is simply a muscle shot. There is no area within the chest cavity that does not contain lung, they fill the entire space.

In any lost animal scenario you really don't know what and where you have hit. The only way to know is recover the animal and actually look. On many of the critters that I find my shot isn't where I knew that I saw it hit. On a bad hit, you normal reaction is going to be to immediately try to convince yourself the shot wasn't as bad as you thought. Let that process play out for a few hours and you likely didn't hit were you thought you did.

A good lesson for all can be had with the animals that are recovered. Take the time to look at the wounds and angle of the arrow. Then open the animal up and look at everything that was or was not hit with the arrow. Great hands on teaching moment than most ignore in the excitement of the kill.

 

[ckleeves]

I just don’t like the word “void” I guess. Webster’s defines it as “a completely empty space” which simply isn’t true. There is no empty space anywhere it’s all occupied by something whether it’s meat,bones,lungs,heart etc.

It can’t be a void if it’s lethal with a rifle but not a bow (spine).

Guys shoot over the spine all the time and blame it on a hollow spot in an animals chest cavity. Not sure how it got started but I have heard it for years.




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[jmez]

Spine can be lethal with a bow but you have to physically hit and damage the cord itself. Not likely with a bow as it is very well protected by heavy muscle, ligaments and bone. A rifle is a little different scenario. You have to hydrostatic shock that doesn't exist with a bow. You can shoot high with a rifle and if you hit close enough to the cord or hit one of the dorsal spinous processes square on it will send that shock into the spinal cord. I t could cause enough damage to the cord to be fatal. That is also the "I thought he was dead, and got up and ran away scenario."

You shock the cord they can and will drop instantly, lay there for a while and then jump up and run off like nothing happened.

I'm with you on the void term. I don't like it at all. I think the way it started and is perpetuated is from a lack of understanding of anatomy and physiology. Someone shoots and animal and goes to gut it and the lungs are small and don't occupy the entire chest cavity. What some don't realize is the lungs shrink when positive pressure is lost in the chest, that isn't how they appear in a normal animal. A lot of people also think that as an animal inhales the lungs fill up and cover the entire chest. Then, when they exhale, the lungs shrink down and leave empty space. That doesn't occur either. The entire chest cavity expands and contracts with the lungs as a single unit.

 

[MallardSX2]

Shooting an elk lower rather than high is always better. Unless you shoot too low and just graze his belly and watch a 300 inch bull run up a mountain....Dont ask how I know that.

 

[Battleguy]

There’s a lot of muscle surrounding the bullet area of impact so it might be able to endure the pain for awhile and run like hell.

 

[ahlgringo]

Shooting an elk lower rather than high is always better. Unless you shoot too low and just graze his belly and watch a 300 inch bull run up a mountain....Dont ask how I know that.

This, feel your pain brotha. Keep telling myself 3” higher is a heart shot. Coulda, shoulda, if I could only do it over.


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[DEHusker]

Usually if a wounded elk can travel uphill any distance, recovery is slim. mtmuley

This.

If an elk travels uphill at all after a shot he either dies after a short distance or if he keeps going that’s a very bad thing, especially a steep grade. It’s not a perfect science but mortally wounded elk generally tend to side hill or go downhill. I know this from experience, unfortunately. Also, it’s a proven fact that although probably lethal, elk can run miles on only one lung. They are very strong and rugged animals. If you are still looking for him, good luck and I really hope you find him. Be careful where you are though. Certain states require special notification to reclaim an animal after 24 hours outside of the close of season.

 

[Chesapeake]

I refer to the area above the spine, right at the tops of the shoulder blades the “withers”, and the bone structure the spinous process.

If you hit the bone the impact can cause temporary poralasis that temporarily drops the animal or causes it to lose function in the hind end. But they tend to recover function rapidly and get up and depart. Often not to be seen again.

I don’t know if they survive this. I’ve killed several elk with injuries from muzzleloader bullets and broad heads, but never with scar tissue in the back strap. I butcher all my own animals, so tend to notice scar tissue, lead slugs, and broadheads.

 

[vanish]

The drawing referenced is incorrect. The spine comes down much lower than pictured. If you've ever handled an elk backstrap you know that its covered in an inch of skin / hair, then another inch or so of fatty meat, then like 6 inches of backstrap, then the spine. To hit the lungs one has to be dang near a foot below the top of the back.

 

[TripleJ]

I refer to the area above the spine, right at the tops of the shoulder blades the “withers”, and the bone structure the spinous process.

If you hit the bone the impact can cause temporary poralasis that temporarily drops the animal or causes it to lose function in the hind end. But they tend to recover function rapidly and get up and depart. Often not to be seen again.

I don’t know if they survive this. I’ve killed several elk with injuries from muzzleloader bullets and broad heads, but never with scar tissue in the back strap. I butcher all my own animals, so tend to notice scar tissue, lead slugs, and broadheads.

I called in a 5 pt bull for my buddy a few years back. When we were processing it later, we recovered an old broadhead lodged against the spine in the backstrap near the top of the shoulder blade. It had been there at least a year, so at least in this case it was non fatal, and didn't seem to be affecting the bull in the least bit.

 

[ckleeves]

I called in a 5 pt bull for my buddy a few years back. When we were processing it later, we recovered an old broadhead lodged against the spine in the backstrap near the top of the shoulder blade. It had been there at least a year, so at least in this case it was non fatal, and didn't seem to be affecting the bull in the least bit.

I tend to believe most backstrap hits are non-fatal. Infection would be the only real killer I would think. Based on the half dozen or so I have seen with old wounds/broadheads/bullets and scar tissue and all the animals my friends who own a processing business see every year I don’t think it’s uncommon at all for them to easily survive it.

I was along for an early rifle hunt a few years ago where we killed a bull that had been shot archery season that year. He was bugleing and chasing cows just fine and was almost healed completely and the wound had to have been less then 7 weeks old.


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[jmez]

It would be pretty rare for an animal to die of an infection from a muscle wound from an arrow.

 

[Ratbeetle]

I'm interested in your setup. I would expect much more than 8-10" of penetration at 25 yards broadside.

 

[Gumbo]

Not to hijack, but I feel your pain. I just did the same high shot on a whitetail last night. Shot was inline with the back of the front leg, but about only 1/5 of the way down from the spine. Marginal penetration and a weak blood trail for a couple hundred yards. I brought my dog back in this morning, 12 hours after the shot and found him. He was alive but hurting for sure as he was slow to get up and didn't run far. I jumped him three times and then lost him in a jungle of willows, cottonwood blowdown, and 6 foot tall grass. I new it was a high shot, but my gut instinct was that he was toast. Now I don't know what to do, I don't feel right about moving on, but the chances or recovery in this spot seem very low, ESPECIALLY if he lives. The thing to understand is that it is a bloodsport, and in spite of the fact that many of us tune and practice year-round these things will happen given enough shots taken. But it makes me sick when it does and I want to quit archery for a few days.

 

[Coveyleader]

It would be pretty rare for an animal to die of an infection from a muscle wound from an arrow.

This is a false statement. I don't know what it is about the hunting community and " I hit a bull, but he was bugling and had a herd of cows two days later he will be fine" or "I hit a buck, but saw him on trail came a week later he will be fine"

Sure, some do survive, but many don't. Two years ago a partner of mine shot a giant 6 point bull. When we were breaking him down, there was a ML bullet in him, and a perfect "X" on the outer skin of the shoulder from a slick trick like BH. When I took that shoulder off, for almost a minute, there was liquid running out of his shoulder and chest the color of coffee creamer. That bull was on borrowed time.

I shot a giant buck a few years back, high, knew it too. BS hit. Watched him run for close to mile (open sage). Less than a week, same buck dead, 40 yds from where I shot him. Body perfectly intact, was in reverse rigor. What killed him?

Bullet, or arrow, once inside an animal, if infection sets in its over.

 

[Gumbo]

I don't know what it is about the hunting community and " I hit a bull, but he was bugling and had a herd of cows two days later he will be fine" or "I hit a buck, but saw him on trail came a week later he will be fine"

I agree. I think it is just because it is easier to accept the suffering if we think the animal is going to be OK. I shot an antelope in the backstrap a few years ago. Clean pass through, rage hypo, and the next day he was running does like a champ. I watched him go downhill over the next few days and after 7 days and he disappeared. I kept glassing and was about to throw in the towel but my dog sniffed him out in some thick sage. He was still alive but could barely stand and kept falling over. I was able to walk him down and get another arrow in him to finish him off 11 days after I initially hit him. I assume that death is certain if you puncture the abdominal or thoracic cavity. Shots outside of that zone are probably a coin flip, and it can take a while so that most hunters are long gone before the animal shows any sign of being mortally wounded.

But, all those whitetail trail cams and old broadheads embedded in animals are clear evidence that some do survive.