3 bullets, 3 calibers, same result?

[35WhelenAI]

Dude, you're giving away my million dollar business idea! I'm going to come out with a new .309 caliber! When you're at the bullet store and you see on the shelf they've got some .308 bullets next to my new .309 bullets which are you going to pick? You're going to pick the .309s obviously!

Bigger wound channel yo! These other bullet companies are going to look like fools!

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Do it!

Companies are making millions of dollars right now convincing everyone they need to shoot a match bullet at long range to get an elk. And lots of companies are making bank selling rifles to do it as well. I tend to get within 400 yards and use a bullet that I never have to ask the question will it hold together on an elk. I know, nowadays 400 yards is just a chip shot and boring as hell to hunt that way.

Design that bullet and sell it, folks are gonna buy it in droves, it has to be better because you told them it was!

 

[IrkedCitizen]

Bartlein has a couple .309 barrels available right now.

 

[MTMeatHunter]

Photos of the performance of the 308 168 ELDm or amax might be helpful. Anyone? Lots of photos of the terminal performance of 264 147 available for comparison. John Barsness said that a noticeable increase in wounding happens when you step up to a 35 cal with a 250 grain bullet, with his point being that most everything below that is actually pretty similar.

 

[bsnedeker]

Bartlein has a couple .309 barrels available right now.

F it, I'm going to .310 boys!

Who's coming with me???

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[Mike D Texas]

Sweet Geezus. I'm as anal and detail oriented as they come, and I even think think this is unnecessary overthinking.

If that’s the case why do people say certain calibers are too small for certain game? I see people all the time say anything 6.5mm is too small for Elk as an example.

BTW I agree with you. A high velocity properly expanding bullet through the heart/lungs is going to kill.


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[35WhelenAI]

My opinion is the 6.5 is not "too small" for elk. It's all about the bullet, period. I've haven't used anything smaller than a 270 Winchester for elk, predominantly the 35 Whelen AI for the past 20 years. The 270, '06, 280 Rem, 300 Win Mag and 35 Whelen AI all do the job with the the right bullet from most any angles, in addition to broadside thru the lungs.

 

[brushape]

I’ve never really noticed a difference in the damage inside an animal with different cartridges and the results are are the same when a bullet is put through the vitals


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[SDHNTR]

If that’s the case why do people say certain calibers are too small for certain game? I see people all the time say anything 6.5mm is too small for Elk as an example.

BTW I agree with you. A high velocity properly expanding bullet through the heart/lungs is going to kill.


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Those people are misinformed.

 

[ElPollo]

Look at gel tests like the Simple Minded Fella on YouTube. What you’ll find is that caliber, across the range the OP is considering, has little effect on permanent wound cavity depth or width compared to the effects of impact velocity and bullet construction.

 

[9.1]

F it, I'm going to .310 boys!

Who's coming with me???

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I'm waiting for you up here at .358

 

[BAKPAKR]

I'm waiting for you up here at .358

What 9.1mm cartridge would you be shooting?

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

Dude, you're giving away my million dollar business idea! I'm going to come out with a new .309 caliber! When you're at the bullet store and you see on the shelf they've got some .308 bullets next to my new .309 bullets which are you going to pick? You're going to pick the .309s obviously!

Bigger wound channel yo! These other bullet companies are going to look like fools!

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F it, I'm going to .310 boys!

Who's coming with me???

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Sorry Broseph the soviets have been making .310-.311 caliber bullets for 3/4 of a century now.. It's called the 7.62x39

I'm not going to wade into the other antics of this thread, it'd be pointless to talk about actual expansion diameter, frangibility, shoulder impacts, weight and bullet mass..
Let's just simplify everything and say .264 is pretty much .308

 

[KnightOwl]

Posting this question where I think some folks might have actual field experience around the scenario.

Let’s assume target is a broadside cow elk, shot just behind the shoulder crease in the lungs. Lower 1/3 hit. For the following bullets with their impact velocities, would the actual wound channels be noticeably different?

308 cal 168 ELD-M - 2100fps
277 cal 145 ELD-X - 2200 fps
264 cal 147 ELD-M - 2100fps

Hoping Form chimes in, but I think I have a guess what his answer might be. I actually feel a little silly asking, but I tend to overthink most everything.

the bigger 30 cal.... I usually use a 7mm-08 but at the end of the day, over the years I've noticed no matter how FAST and ft/lbs you have on a ballsitics chart piece of paper, skinner smaller bullets are simply not good at energy transfer like larger bullets and the bigger stuff does better.

 

[9.1]

What 9.1mm cartridge would you be shooting?

I'd hate to derail a discussion on terminal ballistics by bringing up cartridges.

Let's just simplify everything and say .264 is pretty much .308

I agree 100% I'd even go as far as to say that .284 is pretty much .264/.308.

.277 seems to have a little magic to it that is currently being re-discovered. It has killed things very dead for me. I wish I could offer more to the discussion, but I have never shot a broadside cow elk just behind the shoulder crease in the lungs using one of those bullets at the velocity we're discussing.



Edit: Did we clarify if all of the bullets in the OP were fired from barrels with a twist rate sufficient for stabilizing the bullet? If any of these are tumbling, the would channel wound be different. I always forget about barrel twist, and it likes to come back to haunt me.

 

[762 ULTRAMAGA]

I'd hate to derail a discussion on terminal ballistics by bringing up cartridges.


I agree 100% I'd even go as far as to say that .284 is pretty much .264/.308.

.277 seems to have a little magic to it that is currently being re-discovered. It has killed things very dead for me. I wish I could offer more to the discussion, but I have never shot a broadside cow elk just behind the shoulder crease in the lungs using one of those bullets at the velocity we're discussing.



Edit: Did we clarify if all of the bullets in the OP were fired from barrels with a twist rate sufficient for stabilizing the bullet? If any of these are tumbling, the would channel wound be different. I always forget about barrel twist, and it likes to come back to haunt me.

I was being sarcastic..
There's a big difference in the downrange killing performance between heavy for caliber. 264 bullets and 200 + .308.
It's not even debatable I've seen it many times on Elk

 

[BAKPAKR]

Of the three bullets OP asked about, the 147 gr 6.5mm ELD-M is the only one I have any experience with. If my ballistic program is accurate, impact velocity of the bullet in the photo was around 2150 fps and it was still pretty explosive on a sheep I hit in the crease behind the shoulder. The photo shows the largest pieces of bullet I found. The ram just collapsed, and then slid, and then rolled...

 

[9.1]

Of the three bullets OP asked about, the 147 gr 6.5mm ELD-M is the only one I have any experience with. If my ballistic program is accurate, impact velocity of the bullet in the photo was around 2150 fps and it was still pretty explosive on a sheep I hit in the crease behind the shoulder. The photo shows the largest pieces of bullet I found. The ram just collapsed, and then slid, and then rolled...

That's fantastic! I hope someone else has photos of a similar wound from the 168gn .308 bullet. All the photos I'm finding online for that bullet were moving much faster or hit at a different angle.

 

[sram9102]

I've posted this photo before but this was my experience with a 168 eld. 325 IIRC frontal on a big bodies whitetail buck. Found this bullet in a rear quarter. Unimpressive performance but the deer died rather quickly. This was out of a 16" barrel running 2500ish I think. Killed a pile of deer with that rifle before selling it to a buddy and this was the only bullet that was ever recovered. We're working on a load with some 125 grain bullets for him to use currently.

That's fantastic! I hope someone else has photos of a similar wound from the 168gn .308 bullet. All the photos I'm finding online for that bullet were moving much faster or hit at a different angle.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Posting this question where I think some folks might have actual field experience around the scenario.

Let’s assume target is a broadside cow elk, shot just behind the shoulder crease in the lungs. Lower 1/3 hit. For the following bullets with their impact velocities, would the actual wound channels be noticeably different?

308 cal 168 ELD-M - 2100fps
277 cal 145 ELD-X - 2200 fps
264 cal 147 ELD-M - 2100fps

Hoping Form chimes in, but I think I have a guess what his answer might be. I actually feel a little silly asking, but I tend to overthink most everything.

do this long enough, open up enough critters, and you end up with more questions than answers, you can throw a 6.5 Grendel running a 123 gr eld-m into that mix landing at 1800 fps and you still wouldn't be able to open the elk up and tell which did which, maybe throw a .223 77 tmk in there also...you'd guess the cartridge/bullet combo wrong 9 out of 10 times once the knife comes out, the most impressive damage will often come from the least impressive head stamp or bullet size etc.

 

[MTMeatHunter]

I've posted this photo before but this was my experience with a 168 eld. 325 IIRC frontal on a big bodies whitetail buck. Found this bullet in a rear quarter. Unimpressive performance but the deer died rather quickly. This was out of a 16" barrel running 2500ish I think. Killed a pile of deer with that rifle before selling it to a buddy and this was the only bullet that was ever recovered. We're working on a load with some 125 grain bullets for him to use currently.

Not exactly encouraging results on the 168 ELDM, but a helpful post nonetheless. Thanks!