Arrow Lethality - Shoot Thru Really Ideal??

[brsnow]

Adrenaline certainly plays into how far an animal can travel, I prefer when they don’t know they were hit. Also giving human characteristics to animal doesn’t always workout.

 

[bjfoxhoven]

On the arrow dumping energy and wanting to dump more to cause more damage.... we can all agree that the sharper the broadhead the better, and better edge retention throughout the animal is ideal... well that sharper broadhead is going to dump way less energy because it takes much less energy to get through it. Hence why the IW is as expensive as it is (don’t shoot them and won’t just an example of a quality head).

blood starts to clot as soon as it touches anything other than the inside of a vessel, so it does not need to touch air to get sticky and plug up that hole. Just want to clarify that one a bit.

Not every shots through the pleura (sacks around the lungs) will cause the lungs to completely deflate for various reasons. Negative pressure around the lungs keeps the lungs expanded within those sacks. When there is a hole in that sack the negative pressure is lost causing the lungs to collapse some, if the hole is open enough and the animal breaths air will be pulled into the chest through that hole putting further pressure on the lungs and heart.

I assume most animals actually pass out first. Brain isn’t considered a vital organs to the body. so when blood pressure drops from bleeding, tension pneumo, or lacerated heart/great vessels blood just isn’t going to make it up there enough to keep em on their feet. It takes a fair amount of pressure to get the blood up to the brain. When an animal is hit and the arrow is in them they get the adrenaline rush which jacks up their blood pressure so they can go further. That is why I want a very sharp broadhead to zip right through. They shouldn’t go as far.

love the discussion from both sides. Lots to learn in this thread. If we don’t as questions and have good discussion then we can’t better ourselves.

 

[Sled]

How far under the spine did your arrow pass?

I never saw the off side hole but the entrance was mid lung. I'm aware of the dead space above the lung and could have only single lunged the animal even though the arrow was a pass through. That is and hopefully will be the only big game animal I've ever lost.

Because of that experience, that's why I try to keep my shots in the lower half of the lung, especially on elk.

 

[KyleR1985]

I never saw the off side hole but the entrance was mid lung. I'm aware of the dead space above the lung and could have only single lunged the animal even though the arrow was a pass through. That is and hopefully will be the only big game animal I've ever lost.

Because of that experience, that's why I try to keep my shots in the lower half of the lung, especially on elk.

There is no dead space under the spine and above the lungs. If you hit the animal on one side of his rib cage, and passed under the spine, it’s almost a physical certainty your arrow passed through both lungs, assuming a broadside shot. I say almost because you should never say always and never.

Also, if you hit a cervid behind the heart, and directly below the spine(within 2”), you’re hitting the dorsal aorta, and that critter is not long for this world.

kind of why I asked. Yeh, maybe you only ripped up one lung good, but if your arrow was on that steep of a trajectory, the odds it didn’t go under the spine and sever that aorta, or lay open the offside lung to a large degree, are small. There are plenty of other possibilities to explain the non recovery though, and they always suck. Sounds like that one stick with ya

 

[MattB]

You shoot a stick bow.

#strugglestick

 

[MattB]

What I wrote is mine, if I had wanted to write more I would have.. Read it again as a sole piece without adding what isn't written.

So for those who no longer want to ignore the idea because they have been successful with a properly placed arrow in getting pass throughs and lethal results, how should we go about achieving the same result through partial penetration? That question is based mostly on what you have written..

 

[MattB]

I never saw the off side hole but the entrance was mid lung. I'm aware of the dead space above the lung and could have only single lunged the animal even though the arrow was a pass through. That is and hopefully will be the only big game animal I've ever lost.

Because of that experience, that's why I try to keep my shots in the lower half of the lung, especially on elk.

The only dead space above the lung is over the spine. There is no dead space between the two and in fact the top of the lungs extend slightly above the bottom of the spine on either side in deer. From the frontal view, the bottom of the spine and the ribs that extend to either side look a bit like an upside down W and the lungs extend into the space on either side. While the lungs at the top are not very wide from L to R and perhaps not as vascular, there is no "void" above the lungs and below the spine.

Keeping the arrow lower in the lungs (~1/3 of the way up bottom to top) is great advice IMO.

 

[sndmn11]

So for those who no longer want to ignore the idea because they have been successful with a properly placed arrow in getting pass throughs and lethal results, how should we go about achieving the same result through partial penetration? That question is based mostly on what you have written..

Ugh

I typed three "paragraphs", read the middle one....a few times. Following that, wait a few minutes then read it all together....a few times.

If it still doesn't make sense, let it go.

 

[bjfoxhoven]

There is no dead space under the spine and above the lungs. If you hit the animal on one side of his rib cage, and passed under the spine, it’s almost a physical certainty your arrow passed through both lungs, assuming a broadside shot. I say almost because you should never say always and never.

Also, if you hit a cervid behind the heart, and directly below the spine(within 2”), you’re hitting the dorsal aorta, and that critter is not long for this world.

kind of why I asked. Yeh, maybe you only ripped up one lung good, but if your arrow was on that steep of a trajectory, the odds it didn’t go under the spine and sever that aorta, or lay open the offside lung to a large degree, are small. There are plenty of other possibilities to explain the non recovery though, and they always suck. Sounds like that one stick with ya

I agree. That dead space is actually above the spine shots usually.

 

[rob86jeep]

I have to believe the OP is just trolling here... There's no way any bowhunter can actually believe that leaving the arrow stuck in an animal is better than a pass through when hunting. You can alway come up with a "what if" to make the broadhead stuck in the animal advantageous in rare circumstances, but it would never be the desired effect.

Just to play devils advocate though, how would you even set up a bow to achieve what OP is talking about? You would have to have a very specific bow lbs, arrow weight, arrow fps, broadhead, and distance of shot to achieve this. Whereas a passthrough just needs "at least" enough to get the job done and more is just there for insurance on bad hit, long distance, etc.

 

[MattB]

I have to believe the OP is just trolling here... There's no way any bowhunter can actually believe that leaving the arrow stuck in an animal is better than a pass through when hunting. You can alway come up with a "what if" to make the broadhead stuck in the animal advantageous in rare circumstances, but it would never be the desired effect.

Just to play devils advocate though, how would you even set up a bow to achieve what OP is talking about? You would have to have a very specific bow lbs, arrow weight, arrow fps, broadhead, and distance of shot to achieve this. Whereas a passthrough just needs "at least" enough to get the job done and more is just there for insurance on bad hit, long distance, etc.

I would generally agree on the trolling, but he is an engineer....

While I haven't explicitly stated it, my angst here is that some people start threads where the premise is a bad one, and I think this is one of those. Unchallenged, newbies may happen upon this thread and think the premise makes sense. I really question how many bow kills the OP has and am glad those who likely have far more have countered the notion that keeping the BH in the animal is a better than a pass through.

Not saying there are not situations where having the BH left in the animal will not work out better, but the notion it is generally preferable has too much anecdotal evidence contradicting it.

 

[Mo0se14]

thats right. Not singling you out, or saying you believe that. Just that it doesn’t have to happen. There are heads readily available that will pass through a deer or elk rib cage, and still be shaving sharp on the other side.

What are a couple of these heads of which you speak? I'm a new archer here. Thanks!

 

[Billy Goat]

What are a couple of these heads of which you speak? I'm a new archer here. Thanks!

Iron Will I can vouch for. Several others would likely be the VPA, GK Silver Flames, Solid Legend, and Bishop Archery.

 

[Mighty Mouse]

What are a couple of these heads of which you speak? I'm a new archer here. Thanks!

Billy Goat gave some good options above. I'd add Cutthroats to the list; I've had good experience with those staying sharp through an animal.

 

[Billy Goat]

Billy Goat gave some good options above. I'd add Cutthroats to the list; I've had good experience with those staying sharp through an animal.

I have been curious about those, almost put them on the list. Need to order a few to try.

 

[Beendare]

I would generally agree on the trolling, but he is an engineer....

While I haven't explicitly stated it, my angst here is that some people start threads where the premise is a bad one, and I think this is one of those. Unchallenged, newbies may happen upon this thread and think the premise makes sense. I really question how many bow kills the OP has and am glad those who likely have far more have countered the notion that keeping the BH in the animal is a better than a pass through.

Not saying there are not situations where having the BH left in the animal will not work out better, but the notion it is generally preferable has too much anecdotal evidence contradicting it.

Agreed....some good points Matt.

There is a few premises here that show the lack of understanding with how vital systems work. Two holes through the lungs in the chest cavity literally collapses the lungs long before they bleed out. Its literally the animals last breath. It seems like the extreme effectiveness of this mechanism is misunderstood. The lungs need a sealed pleural cavity to help them inflate.

Someone mentioned blood clotting...this isn't a factor we are concerned with. That animal should be long dead before we have to worry about clotting....

_____

 

[Mo0se14]

Iron Will I can vouch for. Several others would likely be the VPA, GK Silver Flames, Solid Legend, and Bishop Archery.

Thank you!!

 

[eyeguy]

IMO its silly to talk about it being ideal to have the arrow stop in the animal to keep cutting unless its just an in theory discussion. The amount of speed, mass and cutting ability an arrow must possess to get into the vitals without exiting vs not making it to the vitals is a fine line no one interested in consistently taking game would try to ride. Second hole for the blood trail and collapse of lungs is the way to go.

 

[nphunter]

It’s both cutting and energy transfer in archery. You are transferring energy from the bow to the arrow and from the arrow to the body via blades and cutting. A 2” cut going through an animal 10” does the same as a 1” cut at 20”. If your getting passthroughs with a 1 1/8” cut would it make more sense to switch to a 1 3/4” cut if your still getting a pass through? If your not pushing the biggest head you can through an animal your wasting energy burying your arrow in the ground behind them.

Personally I’ve always gotten pass through shots on deer and elk, I always had poor blood trails with fixed heads. I switched to a Trypan and get over 2” holes that go all the way through an elk and out the other side. They also fly very well and are super durable, I defiently feel like I am taking more advantage of my bows energy than I would be if I shot my IW S100’s because they would just zip through with very little damage.

Also I’ve seen better blood from arrows sticking in holes and not allowing them to close than pass through shots with sharp heads. While I agree there isn’t as much reaction with a COC head they normally walk off and can walk a ways before laying down or falling over. The bull I killed last fall watched me shoot him in the wide open sage with a Trypan. I hit low but blew a almost 3” hole all the way through him, blood was running out like a hose and he literally walked 20 yards and laid down as his 30 cows ran off, if I made that same shot with a COC head would have ran off and out of the drainage with all of those cows.

 

[pirogue]

How can this post have 4 pages, when the short answer is, “Don’t overthink it”