Ashby

[Payback]

First, sorry for the newbie question. The search function isn’t turning up what I’m looking for.
Second, sorry if I start a flame war. Not my intent.

I’m brand new to archery, so naturally I’m looking around and trying to learn as much as possible. I keep hearing about Dr. Ashby and all the testing he’s done. He’s put out some pretty clear guidelines on what gives you the best arrow performance. I haven’t seen any testing results that contradict his findings. Why doesn’t everyone follow his recommendations? I’m sure I’m missing something, I just don’t know what it is.

 

[Beendare]

There is some good stuff in those Ashby tests....like a heavy arrow penetrates better...and using a strong BH that doesn't break.

I've seen arrows a lot lighter than his "650gr bone threshold" recommendation blow through big bones.

I've seen hundreds of animals killed with arrows that aren't even close to what Ashby recommends. Thus....I don't put much stock in his insistence a guy needs to shoot massive FOC and a very heavy arrow. His FOC argument goes against what every single pro in every archery discipline shoots. AND Easton who wrote the book on arrows recommends avg FOC 8-16%.

Keep in mind...some of Ashby's theories were developed with rubber bands and weighted straws...and almost all of his testing was him shooting a longbow not controlled research or some peer reviewed scientific study. One guys observations.

Bottom line; Some good stuff in there........but use some common sense.

_____

 

[Moneyball]

There is some good stuff in those Ashby tests....like a heavy arrow penetrates better...and using a strong BH that doesn't break.

I've seen arrows a lot lighter than his "650gr bone threshold" recommendation blow through big bones.

I've seen hundreds of animals killed with arrows that aren't even close to what Ashby recommends. Thus....I don't put much stock in his insistence a guy needs to shoot massive FOC and a very heavy arrow. His FOC argument goes against what every single pro in every archery discipline shoots. AND Easton who wrote the book on arrows recommends avg FOC 8-16%.

Keep in mind...some of Ashby's theories were developed with rubber bands and weighted straws...and almost all of his testing was him shooting a longbow not controlled research or some peer reviewed scientific study. One guys observations.

Bottom line; Some good stuff in there........but use some common sense.

_____

Well said.

His single bevel reports are interesting and I’m sure there is merit to some of his reports. If it was the “end all be all” everyone would be shooting the same type arrows and single bevel heads without question.

Good luck!
-$


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[Ucsdryder]

Do you like podcasts? Kifarucast did 3 podcasts with different arrow/Broadhead makers and Ashby. You’ll find all your answers and even more questions.

 

[ragough96]

I'm getting into archery too and have heard about Dr. Ashby. I appreciate how much effort he has put into to making his reports. I also like the tiered list he has. I think a lot of people just think that he uses heavy arrows, but that's a half-truth. While it is on the list, I believe it is at the bottom of it.

 

[MattB]

Guys tends to buy what he says lock, stock and barrel and then cherry pick from the list when they actual select components.

It's a lot like politics....

 

[jt4]

I’ve done the Ashby thing. Ive also never shot an arrow under 500 grains. Plenty people will tell you my setups are overkill but I’m not one of the people that say it’s Ashby or nothing.

My dumbed down opinion I’ve said to multiple people wanting to bowhunt is, in no particular order of importance....

Practice. Pick an accurately spined arrow. Tune your bow. Shoot a fixed blade broadhead.

Don’t over complicate it at the start. You’re going to change your setup more times than you’d like to admit over time anyways.


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[Beendare]

Guys tends to buy what he says lock, stock and barrel and then cherry pick from the list when they actual select components.

It's a lot like politics....

Agreed Matt.

I think Ashby means well....but many of his claims are from his observations.......either with him shooting a longbow...or rubber bands and wooden dowels.


Like his 30% plus EFOC or whatever he calls it lately...Uber FOC?
Or his long lever arm steers better
Or his claim that EFOC arrow fly further than avg FOC arrows at the same weight [defying the laws of physics!]
Plus his EFOC arrows penetrate MUCH better than avg FOC arrows
Or ask about seeing the actual data from his old "Studies"- Nope, gone....no backup.
Or his SB BH- ask one of the many guys that spent $60 a head for his special Ashby buff head and broke it in a buffalo and lost the animal---I have the pic of a bunch of broken ones around here somewhere from a pissed off bowhunter about 10 years ago.

He has a pretty loyal following though.

I once asked a very large group of compound archers on multiple sites if they actually shoot his 30% plus FOC....and I found a total of 2. Anyone that has tried to actually tune a 30% plus FOC arrow knows why it doesn't work well.

But all of that^ sounds good to the uninitiated.....

______

 

[60x]

Agreed Matt.

I think Ashby means well....but many of his claims are from his observations.......either with him shooting a longbow...or rubber bands and wooden dowels.


Like his 30% plus EFOC or whatever he calls it lately...Uber FOC?
Or his long lever arm steers better
Or his claim that EFOC arrow fly further than avg FOC arrows at the same weight [defying the laws of physics!]
Plus his EFOC arrows penetrate MUCH better than avg FOC arrows
Or ask about seeing the actual data from his old "Studies"- Nope, gone....no backup.
Or his SB BH- ask one of the many guys that spent $60 a head for his special Ashby buff head and broke it in a buffalo and lost the animal---I have the pic of a bunch of broken ones around here somewhere from a pissed off bowhunter about 10 years ago.

He has a pretty loyal following though.

I once asked a very large group of compound archers on multiple sites if they actually shoot his 30% plus FOC....and I found a total of 2. Anyone that has tried to actually tune a 30% plus FOC arrow knows why it doesn't work well.

But all of that^ sounds good to the uninitiated.....

______

more like a cult following lol

 

[Topo_trekker]

Structural integrity, arrow flight, and mass are king. Shoot as heavy arrow as you can with a trajectory you’re comfortable with. If you have the time and want to nerd out, sure his 9 other arrow penetration factors could possibly help on a heavy bone impact, especially if you’re shooting traditional gear at close distances on dangerous game. For compound and deer I would’nt bother with them much.

You’re right that no one really has done a halfway decent job trying to disprove FOC penetration claim. I don’t think he’s claimed that an EFOC arrow penetrates MUCH better. Only that it could be the difference of an inch or two through heavy bone and into the vitals possibly making the difference of kill or no kill.

If you dig through the archery forum I made a post maybe a month ago titled “Will a stiffer arrow penetrate bettter?” It’s generally agreed upon that a stiffer arrow will penetrate better on heavy bone. Well when you build a EFOC arrow you have to use a stiffer spine and light gpi arrow which probably has more to do with the penetration gain from less impact flex than than the actually foc itself. Where you can attribute penetration to specifically high foc is on a deflection shot.

With that said I would never give up a higher strength arrow just to gain a couple more percentage points in foc and I don’t think Ashby would either. I still have yet to find a durable arrow below 9gpi.


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[Payback]

Do you like podcasts? Kifarucast did 3 podcasts with different arrow/Broadhead makers and Ashby. You’ll find all your answers and even more questions.

Kifarucast is what sent me down this road!

 

[Wapiti1]

His greatest contribution was getting people to think about their arrow more critically. There isn't any harm in following his ideas, but there are limitations and flaws in there. Just understand that it's one man's opinion.

Jeremy

 

[N2TRKYS]

Never heard of him.

 

[Squirrels]

I think the information is intriguing, is it the gospel, no. We all have to take the information that is floating around today on any subject and use our reasoning skills to make choices and figure out what is actually true in real world experience. Some people are much better at that than others.

I like heavy arrows and always have because if I shoot a heavier arrow out of the same bow it is always quiter than the lighter arrow.

 

[CJF]

Ashby's research led him to a list of factors that affect penetration. I fully agree with his assessment on each of the factors. Because I agree with him I believe that the most important factor, if components are structurally sound and bow is tuned, is shot placement. Because of that I will not shoot a 783 grain arrow and 39.2% FOC (but I also don't shoot a 350 grain arrow with 10% FOC) because I want the forgiveness of a little more speed....therefore a balance of arrow weight, speed, and FOC is best. Everyone's "balance" is different. My Opinion. You guys can be wrong if you want to think something different

 

[sneaky]

Agreed Matt.

I think Ashby means well....but many of his claims are from his observations.......either with him shooting a longbow...or rubber bands and wooden dowels.


Like his 30% plus EFOC or whatever he calls it lately...Uber FOC?
Or his long lever arm steers better
Or his claim that EFOC arrow fly further than avg FOC arrows at the same weight [defying the laws of physics!]
Plus his EFOC arrows penetrate MUCH better than avg FOC arrows
Or ask about seeing the actual data from his old "Studies"- Nope, gone....no backup.
Or his SB BH- ask one of the many guys that spent $60 a head for his special Ashby buff head and broke it in a buffalo and lost the animal---I have the pic of a bunch of broken ones around here somewhere from a pissed off bowhunter about 10 years ago.

He has a pretty loyal following though.

I once asked a very large group of compound archers on multiple sites if they actually shoot his 30% plus FOC....and I found a total of 2. Anyone that has tried to actually tune a 30% plus FOC arrow knows why it doesn't work well.

But all of that^ sounds good to the uninitiated.....

______

Physics will tell you there's truth to the long lever arm theory. It's like trying to use a pry bar to raise something. You put your pivot point closer to the weight you're lifting and use the long end as leverage. You put it in the middle or further away and you lose mechanical advantage. I'm not advocating super high FOC but with a reasonably high FOC you don't need as much feather or vane surface area to steer it. You can still shoot big tall 5" feathers, but all you're doing is putting too much drag on the arrow or covering up form flaws.

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[pcf]

I have tried several of Ashby's recommendations. I found some useful and some not for my setup.