Custom Dope chart for sfp scope

[Justin Crossley]

This discussion makes me think we've somehow gone back in time....

 

[Mojave]

I doubt I will change anything. I am going to dial for anything over 100. It is wired in my head to do it that way.

I used to shoot F-Class and I have shot a little bit of PRS type things. Dialing is normal for me.

I dial wind and I hold wind. It depends on the situation.

I have both Christmas tree reticles and non-Christmas tree reticles. I like both. In cheaper scopes the Christmas tree reticles are the only way to go. That way you don't get bit by it.

Personally use what works for you. What I use works for me.

Never been to a long range shooting class. I'd like to go to Gunsite, Gunwerks, SIG or the NRA one at some point. I think it would be a good experience for me.

I was slotted to go to the Australian Military Sniper Rifle school in 2009 and I ended up having back surgery, and getting an early military retirement. That would have been amazing.

Building my knowledge base one shot at a time, and my work flows are sorted a bit at a time.

I spent some time on the Hornady ballistics ap messing with MPBR, it is interesting for sure.

I am also have the fortune to live in the west and have access to a ton of places to shoot.

 

[Mojave]

I set at 300, as in shoot it in at 300 yds. I also confirm dope chart out to 800. But, I think a lot of people do what you are talking about above.

You have to true your data. I shoot at every distance from 50-450 at my local range, and if I have time I take it to 1000.

Wind always sucks at the 1000 yard range.

 

[rootacres]

I rocked a SFP for a long time without much worry. In my opinion, if you're making a shot where you're really going to be needing the sub tensions in the reticle, its likely to be a longer shot where you're going to be using the max zoom of a 15, 16, 18 power anyway. When I used a SFP scope, I would dial for elevation and use the sub tensions for windage. That eliminates the BDC portion of your question. Inside say 350 yds you'll be able to ballpark a windage hold if you didn't want to take the shot on max magnification.

For what it's worth, I used the 3-15x42 Razor LHT. Exposed locking elevation turret on top, capped windage, 19oz. My dad had used a 3-15 Zeiss that is SFP for forever. The longer shots he's uses the BDC and holds for wind when needed.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

This discussion makes me think we've somehow gone back in time....

Or, typical of human nature we occam razored it the first time round then think it can’t be that easy, I’m bored now, too smart so we complicate the sh1t out of it only to start stuffing all the worms back in the can and remember what we’re actually trying to do out in the first place. Then many poor souls can’t handle it could be that easy and voila. Could be that.

People are so funny, we can’t leave well enough alone. We do it all the time, to pretty much everything. Welcome back.

As for the 100 yard zero then dial for everything guys. Can’t seem to fathom mpbr and that 98% of hunting will land in that range and that’s the window you don’t have time ‘fack around and find out’, these are animals you’re hunting...not steel that isn’t worried about survival. Hunting....that’s what we’re talking about right! And then go on about how ‘when I prs and f-class this’... Like really? Then go off like that’s how it should be done for hunting and act baffled when hunters do it with hunting at the forefront of their set up? What a bizarre world some of you live in. If you like to and can crossover your prs and f-class range set up to hunting then all the power to you, as mentioned, pick your system then get at one with it. But don’t get all holier than though on hunters with hunt set ups. I think it’s comical someone would walk around with a 100 yard zero and hope to range and dial for a deer at 225 yards that’s now leaving the country laughing it’s ass off. Mpbr means hunting, it means the rangefinder doesn’t even need to come out until the animal is far enough away you’ll be needing corrections and will actually have time to do them. Why in the four fisted fack would you set up any other way? ‘Ooh it’s more precise at 600+ yards’, where 99.9% of hunting doesn’t happen. 98% hunting happens in mpbr. Less is more...hunting. More is more...anything else lol.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

I doubt I will change anything. I am going to dial for anything over 100. It is wired in my head to do it that way.

I used to shoot F-Class and I have shot a little bit of PRS type things. Dialing is normal for me.

I dial wind and I hold wind. It depends on the situation.

I have both Christmas tree reticles and non-Christmas tree reticles. I like both. In cheaper scopes the Christmas tree reticles are the only way to go. That way you don't get bit by it.

Personally use what works for you. What I use works for me.

Never been to a long range shooting class. I'd like to go to Gunsite, Gunwerks, SIG or the NRA one at some point. I think it would be a good experience for me.

I was slotted to go to the Australian Military Sniper Rifle school in 2009 and I ended up having back surgery, and getting an early military retirement. That would have been amazing.

Building my knowledge base one shot at a time, and my work flows are sorted a bit at a time.

I spent some time on the Hornady ballistics ap messing with MPBR, it is interesting for sure.

I am also have the fortune to live in the west and have access to a ton of places to shoot.

Serious question. When did you start hunting? Did you hunt before all the target stuff? Or did that all start in military younger and then got into hunting later?

 

[Formidilosus]

‘Ooh it’s more precise at 600+ yards’, where 99.9% of hunting doesn’t happen. 98% hunting happens in mpbr. Less is more...hunting. More is more...anything else lol.

You write a lot of “percentage”. Where do you get those numbers?

 

[Justin Crossley]

Or, typical of human nature we occam razored it the first time round then think it can’t be that easy, I’m bored now, too smart so we complicate the sh1t out of it only to start stuffing all the worms back in the can and remember what we’re actually trying to do out in the first place. Then many poor souls can’t handle it could be that easy and voila. Could be that.

People are so funny, we can’t leave well enough alone. We do it all the time, to pretty much everything. Welcome back.

As for the 100 yard zero then dial for everything guys. Can’t seem to fathom mpbr and that 98% of hunting will land in that range and that’s the window you don’t have time ‘fack around and find out’, these are animals you’re hunting...not steel that isn’t worried about survival. Hunting....that’s what we’re talking about right! And then go on about how ‘when I prs and f-class this’... Like really? Then go off like that’s how it should be done for hunting and act baffled when hunters do it with hunting at the forefront of their set up? What a bizarre world some of you live in. If you like to and can crossover your prs and f-class range set up to hunting then all the power to you, as mentioned, pick your system then get at one with it. But don’t get all holier than though on hunters with hunt set ups. I think it’s comical someone would walk around with a 100 yard zero and hope to range and dial for a deer at 225 yards that’s now leaving the country laughing it’s ass off. Mpbr means hunting, it means the rangefinder doesn’t even need to come out until the animal is far enough away you’ll be needing corrections and will actually have time to do them. Why in the four fisted fack would you set up any other way? ‘Ooh it’s more precise at 600+ yards’, where 99.9% of hunting doesn’t happen. 98% hunting happens in mpbr. Less is more...hunting. More is more...anything else lol.

Anyone who thinks they will be as accurate guessing where to aim as you continually recommend is setting themselves up for a lot of misses or wounded animals.

Most the people who are advising other methods which you claim are too complicated have actually tested their gear and their methods. I used to think similarly to you but as I continue to test myself I learn the weaknesses and refine my gear and methods.

I know you think competition doesn't help hunting but I can tell you for a fact that competing in matches such as NRL Hunter WILL make you better when that buck is standing 450 yards away and you only have 30 seconds to build a position and make one solid kill shot.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

since MPBR seems to be a new concept to a few, here's how I utilize the concept.

1. zero at an appropriate distance, typically 100 yards for a centerfire rifle. If you have zero stop, this is what it gets set for.
2. set an appropriate MPBR radius. 4" is the traditional number, personally I think 2" is better, because a 4" radius gives zero margin on a whitetail for shooter error. Zero shooter error is more a goal than a reality IMO. MPBRs for centerfire rifles are typically 300+/-75 yards depending on the muzzle velocity and BC.
3. use ballistics software to determine the MPBR, the MPB zero distance, and the come up from the zero distance to the MPB zero distance. make this adjustment on the scope, without adjusting the zero stop.
4. Shoot at 100 yards, verify impact is now high by the expected amount.
5. Shoot as close to the MPB zero distance as possible, verify POA/POI are the same. Sometimes this is hard at a range because the MPB zero distance is something like 267 yards
6. Shoot MPBR, verify impact is within the expected low radius.
7. Go hunting.
8. When presented with a shot opportunity:

-for a quick shot inside the MPBR, hold on the vitals and shoot​

-When the shot is beyond MPBR, or anytime there's enough time to get a range and dial the perfect solution, then hold elevation correct, holdoff as necessary for windage, and shoot

If there's a compelling reason that this is wrong I'd like to know about it.

 

[Justin Crossley]

since MPBR seems to be a new concept to a few, here's how I utilize the concept.

1. zero at an appropriate distance, typically 100 yards for a centerfire rifle. If you have zero stop, this is what it gets set for.
2. set an appropriate MPBR radius. 4" is the traditional number, personally I think 2" is better, because a 4" radius gives zero margin on a whitetail for shooter error. Zero shooter error is more a goal than a reality IMO. MPBRs for centerfire rifles are typically 300+/-75 yards depending on the muzzle velocity and BC.
3. use ballistics software to determine the MPBR, the MPB zero distance, and the come up from the zero distance to the MPB zero distance. make this adjustment on the scope, without adjusting the zero stop.
4. Shoot at 100 yards, verify impact is now high by the expected amount.
5. Shoot as close to the MPB zero distance as possible, verify POA/POI are the same. Sometimes this is hard at a range because the MPB zero distance is something like 267 yards
6. Shoot MPBR, verify impact is within the expected low radius.
7. Go hunting.
8. When presented with a shot opportunity:

-for a quick shot inside the MPBR, hold on the vitals and shoot​

-When the shot is beyond MPBR, or anytime there's enough time to get a range and dial the perfect solution, then hold elevation correct, holdoff as necessary for windage, and shoot

If there's a compelling reason that this is wrong I'd like to know about it.

Perfect explanation of how to use that system properly IMO. Often times I'll dial my rifles up from zero (100 yards) as you describe if I expect I could be presented with a quick shot at about 300 yards or less.

For actual long range shots I dial my elevation correction as precisely as I can, hold wind in the reticle, and press the trigger.

 

[Mojave]

Serious question. When did you start hunting? Did you hunt before all the target stuff? Or did that all start in military younger and then got into hunting later?

I have been hunting since childhood and am in my 50's.

Until about 10 years ago when I started dialing we always did 2 inches over 100 for my 30-06/7mm Rem Mag type cartridges. Not really MPBR, as I don't think I every really trued that data.

I learned more from F-Class and PRS on shooting than anything else in my life.

My Wyoming antelope this year was a perfect example. Shot was around 175, dialed .2 MILS up and killed him.

Had time to do that though.

We don't get many tags in New Mexico and even though I apply in other states I don't have a huge volume of experience.

I need to do another Africa trip and bring a rifle with MPBR and a rifle with a 100 yard zero and see how I feel about it at the end of the trip.

I also need to do more with reticles only.

Everything is a learning curve.

David Tubb has a video on shooting baboons in South Africa using his reticle and shooting a variety of distances.

At the time he shot that video non SAFer's could do huge depredation varmint hunting. I don't think it is the case anymore.

 

[EdP]

The part of all the dial recommendations that isn't being addressed is that for a lot of guys over 50, reading the dial without glasses is a problem, especially from a shooting position. I don't dial for that reason. If I was shooting competition on a range I would have the time to go glasses on, dial, glasses off, shoot. When hunting that's too much of a complication at a time that things need to be simple. For big game hunting do what B-Renolds AK said. Keep it simple with max power of 9, 10 or maybe 12. That is plenty of magnification for big game out to 600 and beyond and will make it easier to get back on for a follow-up if needed. Use your BDC subtensions with a dope card. Zero at 200-225 yds and you will be point blank out to 250 and won't have to worry about magnification or subtensions. Carry on min magnification. If you want to shoot prairie dogs at 600 yds you might need to do something different.

 

[dirtytough]

That’s why I asked, either you do not know how to turn a turret (I.E.- you don’t 19 clicks instead of ripping it as fast as possible to 1.9 mils, for instance), which I doubt is the case; or you “feel” that it is faster to hold than dial. Unequivocally it is faster to hit a realistic sized target (not faster to shoot) dialing elevation and holding wind, than it is to hold in the reticle.

Feelings lie. Everyone feels that they are faster holding elevation and wind than they are dialing. When actually measured for speed and hit rates in the field from differing positions, under stress, breathing heavy, etc., that never shows.


Time yourself getting into various position in the field with wind and a bit of stress and hitting 8-12” targets both dialing and holding elevation.

This is interesting. I know that if I was to take the time to dial I wouldn’t even get a shot off a lot of times at coyotes. That second/third dog only stops for 1-2 seconds usually after killing the previous dog/dogs.

Is dialing more precise? Yea. Faster? No. Faster to get hits? Not if taking the time to dial means shooting at a moving target compared to shooting at a stationary target.

Here’s a scenario question for form and everyone else. If you miss an animal while hunting or a target at a timed competition. Are you dialing your elevation if you missed low/high or are you holding with your reticle?

 

[Justin Crossley]

Here’s a scenario question for form and everyone else. If you miss an animal while hunting or a target at a timed competition. Are you dialing your elevation if you missed low/high or are you holding with your reticle?

Life size rabbit target at 487 yards.

Shooting 147 ELD-M at 3030 fps from 6.5-06 ai.

Dial 1.9 mils and hit just high or low, I'm measuring with reticle, holding correction, and sending another round.

But, I wouldn't have missed in the first place because my scope holds zero and I dialed....

 

[nobody]

I have a 6.5prc that im looking for a scope to match to. Ive heard the big downside to ffp is the crosshairs are very faint on low power for hunting. So im looking at sfp scopes and my concern is the feasibility of doing the math in the moment of the shot and being accurate. Say on half power, the adjustment will be less than at full power, correct? So do guys with sfp scopes have a dope chart that includes alternative power holdover?

For example, for a 4-16 power scope, do you have a column of holdovers for 8, 12, and 16 power levels? Or do you do the math in your head? Im trying to figure out which method is best strictly for hunting.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

1. If you've never used an FFP scope or handled one, and your position and opinion regarding reticles is based upon the "keyboard warrior" on the internet, get off the d*** computer and go shoot one. The "you can't see the reticle on low power/in the woods/in low light" is something that's largely perpetuated by (from my experience) guys who haven't ever actually used an FFP reticle and scope. I ran an Athlon (before I knew better) Ares BTR Gen 2 4.5-27 for a minute, it was FFP, and as poor mechanically as the scope was, the reticle was always visible on any power. Based on every Fudd online, that scope should've been useless in low light and the reticle should've been basically invisible. But nope, in actual use, the reticle was not a problem.

2. Holdovers are for the birds. I switched to "dialing" scopes back in 2017, and FFP a couple years ago. Dialing was a game changer, but FFP was where the magic really started to happen. The only SFP hunting scope I still use is a Nikon Prostaff of some flavor, 3-9x40, with their BDC bubbles. It's mounted on a Winchester Apex .50 Cal Muzzleloader that I've had since I was 14. It's never moved zero, but it'll be replaced as soon as it does. I've got a holdover chart that I put together for my hunt this year, here's a snip. The amount of mental gymnastics I had to do this year in order to make a shot on my little general season Utah buck was nothing short of ridiculous. I quadruple checked my mag like 10 times, my brother sitting next to me calling out ranges, me tweaking my magnification to keep relevant as the buck moved. It was an absolute joke. The buck was either 235 or 335, I can't remember exactly at this point. Whenever the buck moved, I was double checking my chart and finding the closest representation of his actual distance to my aiming points. It was a joke. I ended up making the shot and he dropped in place, but it was way too much thinking for a +/- 300 yard shot.




Now, a muzzleloader is an extreme example because the trajectory looks more like an underhand slow-pitch softball pitch than a bullet in flight, but the concept holds true.

Learn to run ballistics and dial your elevation, get FFP scope with good wind holds and learn to hold wind. You'll be better served doing that than trying to do the mental gymnastics in the field when the buck of a lifetime is across the canyon. Your equipment should NEVER be the reason you don't take a shot, it should never be the limiting factor on your hunt. It should do everything you ever think you'll want it to do, that way if you don't take the 600 yard shot it'll be because you aren't confident, not because your rifle isn't capable. Set the rifle up so you'll never outgrow it and you'll never want for more. Don't handicap the modern 6.5 PRC by putting a sub-par optic on it. Pick up a Nightforce SHV F1 4-14, download the Shooter App, learn ballistics, then go kill the piss out of animals.

 

[svivian]

since MPBR seems to be a new concept to a few, here's how I utilize the concept.

1. zero at an appropriate distance, typically 100 yards for a centerfire rifle. If you have zero stop, this is what it gets set for.
2. set an appropriate MPBR radius. 4" is the traditional number, personally I think 2" is better, because a 4" radius gives zero margin on a whitetail for shooter error. Zero shooter error is more a goal than a reality IMO. MPBRs for centerfire rifles are typically 300+/-75 yards depending on the muzzle velocity and BC.
3. use ballistics software to determine the MPBR, the MPB zero distance, and the come up from the zero distance to the MPB zero distance. make this adjustment on the scope, without adjusting the zero stop.
4. Shoot at 100 yards, verify impact is now high by the expected amount.
5. Shoot as close to the MPB zero distance as possible, verify POA/POI are the same. Sometimes this is hard at a range because the MPB zero distance is something like 267 yards
6. Shoot MPBR, verify impact is within the expected low radius.
7. Go hunting.
8. When presented with a shot opportunity:

-for a quick shot inside the MPBR, hold on the vitals and shoot​

-When the shot is beyond MPBR, or anytime there's enough time to get a range and dial the perfect solution, then hold elevation correct, holdoff as necessary for windage, and shoot

If there's a compelling reason that this is wrong I'd like to know about it.

This is how I do it as well.

Only time I've seen it fail was when my buddy got excited on a large mule deer and dialed up from the MPB zero instead of actual zero.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

since MPBR seems to be a new concept to a few, here's how I utilize the concept.

1. zero at an appropriate distance, typically 100 yards for a centerfire rifle. If you have zero stop, this is what it gets set for.
2. set an appropriate MPBR radius. 4" is the traditional number, personally I think 2" is better, because a 4" radius gives zero margin on a whitetail for shooter error. Zero shooter error is more a goal than a reality IMO. MPBRs for centerfire rifles are typically 300+/-75 yards depending on the muzzle velocity and BC.
3. use ballistics software to determine the MPBR, the MPB zero distance, and the come up from the zero distance to the MPB zero distance. make this adjustment on the scope, without adjusting the zero stop.
4. Shoot at 100 yards, verify impact is now high by the expected amount.
5. Shoot as close to the MPB zero distance as possible, verify POA/POI are the same. Sometimes this is hard at a range because the MPB zero distance is something like 267 yards
6. Shoot MPBR, verify impact is within the expected low radius.
7. Go hunting.
8. When presented with a shot opportunity:

-for a quick shot inside the MPBR, hold on the vitals and shoot​

-When the shot is beyond MPBR, or anytime there's enough time to get a range and dial the perfect solution, then hold elevation correct, holdoff as necessary for windage, and shoot

If there's a compelling reason that this is wrong I'd like to know about it.

nice explanation, and here's another for those with more boiled down simpler systems, who leave the computer at home, carry a regular rangefinder, prefer their conversion chart/computer data already installed on the turret in large easy to read single digit numbers and simplest fastest format possible, in yards that match the information the rangefinder spits out, you range 400 and dial to the 4, you range 425 and you dial to between the 4 and half way hash or smaller 4.5 number, nothing faster than this for precise elevation correction for long range hunting (which we have defined here), and therefore utilize a single rotation turret commonly referred to as a speed dial turret...'speed dial', you only need minimal amount of data, so you can boil it down and fit it on the turret in a few big fat easier to read numbers since you used logic and concluded that you don't really need to carry your gear set up for prs competition, elrh small game hunting, and the possibility that you may be in the .1% that can consistently kill past 600 yards

it all fits on the turret if you use a 200/250 mpbr zero and even slowest rigs still dial up to 600 or beyond in one rotation, and 200/250 rule of thumb mpbr zero (instead of 213 or 267 etc. whatever your rig may actually be) is for easy of zero checks, data for having turrets made up to start from easy to remember zero, just common sense data reduction simplicity

and if you have a zero lock, where do you want that to be when actively hunting, in and out of pack/scabbards/kifaru gun bearers, going through bush, crawling on ground stalking etc.? you want it locked...you want to be able to check it blind with your hand and feel it's locked on zero or not even worry about it at all and that zero at 100 is pointless for big game hunting, dial up a few clicks and now your turret is free to be bumped and rubbed removing the point of the zero lock turret...you want that locked on mpbr zero...logic dictates this

 

[EdP]

I was in a valley when we spotted a mule deer just below the ridgeline to the east at 375 yds at about 8:00 am. I cranked the Leupold 4-12 to 12 on my .280AI, used my 400 yd subtension and made the shot. The deer dropped on the spot. The shot was about 4 inches high from my point of aim but well within the target kill zone. A minute or two after the shot the sun came over the ridge just above the deer which would have made the shot almost impossible. Keeping it simple works for me. You do what works for you.

I think the historically higher cost of FFP scopes has made them less popular in general. Now SFP scopes that can be dialed dependably seem to be in a similar price range. Perhaps it is the dialing aspect rather than FFP vs SFP that contributes to the cost. From my perspective I am happy there are other good and far less expensive options for what I need a scope to do.

 

[Formidilosus]

Here’s a scenario question for form and everyone else. If you miss an animal while hunting or a target at a timed competition. Are you dialing your elevation if you missed low/high or are you holding with your reticle?

Depends on how large the miss, if just barely, generally the second shot will be with the reticle. I’m not sure how that scenario is really tied to the general theme of dialing or holding as a default technique for a first shot?


1). One should practice and be able to dial and hold.

2). For a single, relatively stationary target as most big game, dialing elevation and holding wind is faster to hit. That is to hit 8-12” targets. I’m not guessing on this and it is easy to check yourself. The smaller the target, the more unsteady or unusual the position, the higher ones heart rate is, the heavier ones breathing, the more stress one is under- the more that is true.

3). Multiple, rapidly moving- that is rapid large changes in distance targets, are where FFP and holding elevation come into play and you automatically understand that your hit rate will be lower. The farther the range ( more holding over) there is, the lower the hit rate.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

This is how I do it as well.

Only time I've seen it fail was when my buddy got excited on a large mule deer and dialed up from the MPB zero instead of actual zero.

just another example of more fack around and more find out, keep preparing and gearing up for elrh small game precision and prs competition and elrh big game hunting where 0.1% will be consistent killers is passing the point of diminishing returns and catches people out from time to time when it counts

if he had a zero lock turret on 200 or 250 and his data started from there...dead deer...but decided to drag unrelated gear and prep into the field for task at hand, and found out