Does brass matter?

[wind gypsy]

Better ES/SD. I would think with careful measurement you’d see the consistency, but I’ve never bothered. I let my testing/results inform my opinion. I chase a very high standard for my ES. Sub 20 for sure, and I like to be closer to 10 across a 10 shot string. I’ve gotten to where I won’t even consider a cartridge if there isn’t Lapua brass. It’s just the easy button, if your process is consistent, with good bullets, I’ve never had an issue. With other brass brands, it’s been all over the map.

I realize that level of consistency doesn’t really “matter” for most hunting that most people do. But if you’re into any sort of longish range shooting, it’s a very important variable to take out of the equation

ES of 10 over 10 shots, consistently, is pretty damn tough in my experience. I'd go crazy trying to hit that I think.

 

[TaperPin]

Cool results - thanks for posting.

 

[jfk69]

Yes it matters in my experience, as far as consistency and longevity. Does it matter “enough” on my hunting rifles? Not for me. I chased that rabbit for years and out of factory and semi custom guns, the juice wasn’t worth the squeeze. With that said, I generally use Norma as my base, with some Petersen and Lapua in there too, but you’ll find sorted Win/RP/Hornady brass in my room too. I have some cartridges where better brass simply isn’t available from the alpha makers OR it’s for some of my milsurps with iron sights that simply isn‘t worth the premium (7.62x54r, 6.5x55, 7.35 Carc etc).

 

[riversidejeep]

I have done similar testing on the .223 / 556 brass but with nowhere near the documentation that you did. Results were somewhat the same. For my varmint whacking rounds I load 43 grain lead free TNT, the difference in group sizes between 6 different brands of brass was 1/2" so I've decided that's within tolerance for squirrels within 300 yards, I no longer separate bass for those. For longer range and target shooting I use all L/C brass and 77 grain SMK BTHP as I'm chasing better groups and it seems to work. As far as the E/S my data shows that the powder charge is the deciding factor. When working up a load say in 1/2% increments' the velocity spread will be bad , bad ,better, awesome. I'm sure that good brass having exact internal capacity once you found a load that gives good E/S will be the hot ticket.

 

[Flyjunky]

In my mind consistency of the components you use will yield better results. We strive to load consistent charge weights, seat bullets the same, etc. Why would you want to use brass that isn't as consistent and uniform as possible?

 

[Jake Larsen]

ES of 10 over 10 shots, consistently, is pretty damn tough in my experience. I'd go crazy trying to hit that I think.

I’ve got there a couple times, always with Lapua brass. I’ve never NOT been able to get 12-15. Just got my hands on some Alpha SRP for a new rifle, been extremely impressed so far. I got to 15 on the first firing, once I got powder charge/primer dialed in. It’ll be interesting to see if i can get it lower with .002 shoulder bump/annealed on the next go around. With new brass I always run it over an expanded mandrel for .002 neck tension, and then on subsequent firings I use a Redding type S FL bushing die, so I can control for .002 neck tension. In the past It’s been hit or miss for me if I can get ES lower on subsequent firings with Lapua. Sometimes have to make a small powder charge adjustment, I think because the case capacity changes very slightly with once fired/.002 shoulder bump resized brass. That’s a redneck guess on the reasoning tho.

On a side note, I’ve found that a consistent process to achieve perfect neck tension is absolutely critical for low ES


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[Marbles]

It looks like this was not always displaying at the end of the post 2, I boke it up.

Regarding brass sorting and internal volume, I really don't think those explain what I'm seeing based on this data. Sorting by weight or H20 capacity does not look like it would have changed much of anything. It does not even look to explain the velocity difference between the head stamps.



Regarding powder charge, that cannot be the explanation as out of 40 cases loaded in random order only the 10 starline had an SD above 25, the other head stamps had SDs under 15. I've had consistent SDs above 20 in every load with the starline (it is the primary brass I'm reloading). I had blamed this on me, but no longer.



My question at this point, is should I reload at a grain lighter, shoot the numbered cases and match individual case velocity with the volume data. This would be a good confirmatory test that the small variance in case capacity has no real effect.

@CatManDo perhaps I should try annealing, see if the starline can be case prepped into consistency and prove my past assertion that it does not matter wrong. I might give annealing a try, as it improves safety, even if it changes nothing (which on Lupua brass Litz found no change) it still contributes value.

If I have to chase neck turning, mandrel expanding, seating pressure, I'm simply not going to do it as I don't care enough.

 

[Marbles]

The main reason I use nicer brass like ADG or Peterson is because it lasts longer since I almost always load at or near max. Not having to sort brass or discard a certain percentage due to wild inconsistencies and having lower ES are bonus reasons for me. Other than that, I think good and consistent case prep is the key to happiness. I do like Starline for my bulk ammo for gas guns though.

The starline is clearly a more durable brass. Resizing cases yesterday, one of the winchesters (not one of the 10 used for this test), split the neck. That is after only two firings.

My sample of one T3x lite barrel seemed to shoot a little better below top pressures. Not sure if the higher pressure of the smaller starline cases could have anything to do with it.

It certainly likes lower charge and different powder. I have gotten much better groups from the Starline and TMKs using N140 (I'm just using up the N135 on practice ammo as it was all I could find when I started, shipping issues with hazmat to AK makes online orders impossible). I think the faster burn, heavy bullet, and max charge just are not a great idea. Not going to bother fully testing that, will just back off as a lighter charge is safer, as well as cheaper over time.

This is playing around with RMR 75 gr bullets, as it was for practice, I loaded most at 22 grs, but did load ten at 23 gr just to see.

 

[Jake Larsen]

[QUOTE="If I have to chase neck turning, mandrel expanding, seating pressure, I'm simply not going to do it as I don't care enough.[/QUOTE]

I went down every rabbit hole you can imagine trying to get “good” brass to shoot well with low ES. With weight sorting, Case volume sorting, concentricity sorting, ect ect. I could get most of jt to group well, but could never get good groups AND low ES.

When I switched to Lapua, I started with my old processes of sorting, and eventually just quit. I never found enough runout in any measurement I took in the same lot of brass to toss any. I also think there’s probably something to the process of how the brass is actually formed; the alloy in the base verses the neck portion ect ect that adds to the consistency as well.

My process with new brass now is extremely easy, because I don’t have to worry about measuring or sorting in any way. Just chamfer/debur, run it over and expander mandrel, prime, on grain powder measurement, seating depth to +\- .001, and send it. Saves a TON of time compared to trying to make a lesser quality brass perform to a high standard.


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[Jake Larsen]

The starline is clearly a more durable brass. Resizing cases yesterday, one of the winchesters (not one of the 10 used for this test), split the neck. That is after only two firings.


It certainly likes lower charge and different powder. I have gotten much better groups from the Starline and TMKs using N140 (I'm just using up the N135 on practice ammo as it was all I could find when I started, shipping issues with hazmat to AK makes online orders impossible). I think the faster burn, heavy bullet, and max charge just are not a great idea. Not going to bother fully testing that, will just back off as a lighter charge is safer, as well as cheaper over time.

This is playing around with RMR 75 gr bullets, as it was for practice, I loaded most at 22 grs, but did load ten at 23 gr just to see.

View attachment 674397
View attachment 674396

Brass failure after 2 firings is crazy. You asked earlier about Lapua’s reputation for durability…

If you anneal properly, Lapua will get you anywhere from 15-20 firings, and with SRP, I know of guys getting 25-30. When I get a new barrel, I get 200 new cases, and shoot them for the life of the barrel. That way I only have to go through the load development process one time per barrel. Never had a failure of any kind on Lapua with this process.


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[Flyjunky]

Brass failure after 2 firings is crazy. You asked earlier about Lapua’s reputation for durability…

If you anneal properly, Lapua will get you anywhere from 15-20 firings, and with SRP, I know of guys getting 25-30. When I get a new barrel, I get 200 new cases, and shoot them for the life of the barrel. That way I only have to go through the load development process one time per barrel. Never had a failure of any kind on Lapua with this process.


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Same here.

 

[Marbles]

I also think there’s probably something to the process of how the brass is actually formed; the alloy in the base verses the neck portion ect ect that adds to the consistency as well.

After looking at the data, this is my suspicion, the issue results from something other than the things I can easily measure. Making extreme measures to sort something that is not worth the effort.

There is a lot of voodoo bull shit (VBS) in reloading, I'm trying to decide what might be worth my effort and avoid getting mired in VBS. I've simply not found much clear data on line, so figured I would share what I'm finding for my own use.

Brass failure after 2 firings is crazy. You asked earlier about Lapua’s reputation for durability…

If you anneal properly, Lapua will get you anywhere from 15-20 firings, and with SRP, I know of guys getting 25-30. When I get a new barrel, I get 200 new cases, and shoot them for the life of the barrel. That way I only have to go through the load development process one time per barrel. Never had a failure of any kind on Lapua with this process.

Yes, for brass that was effectively free, I'm fine with it. However, I certainly will not be getting Winchester to reload. Same with the FC, I already have the loaded ammo, and will shoot it down for close range speed work (it is horribly inaccurate in my Tikka), so I will make use of the brass. I've loaded and will have shot about 500 rounds in less than a month and a half, so will save money were I can and at the moment the focus is on building my skill behind the gun, as I'm reloading and shooting volume anyway, I figured might as well play around.

I will load up some small game loads (RMR bullet, lighter powder charge) and regulate the Winchester to that as I loose half of what I shoot in the field every time anyway.

 

[wind gypsy]

Brass failure after 2 firings is crazy. You asked earlier about Lapua’s reputation for durability…

If you anneal properly, Lapua will get you anywhere from 15-20 firings, and with SRP, I know of guys getting 25-30. When I get a new barrel, I get 200 new cases, and shoot them for the life of the barrel. That way I only have to go through the load development process one time per barrel. Never had a failure of any kind on Lapua with this process.

Wouldn't bet on that kind of brass life in lapua 223 though unless they were ran very soft. Not much metal around the primer pockets.

 

[Jake Larsen]

Your thought process makes sense to me, if your main concern is getting reps in. Goes back to the discussion of what actually “matters”. The process Ive been describing is for tuning a long ish range hunting rifle. Extreme consistency matters to me in that scenario, so I chase it. Top shelf brass is the easy button in that scenario.

If you’re just trying to get range time and reps, it gets tough. I hate the process of trying to sort out the junkers in a batch of low-mid quality brass haha. All sorts of little stuff matters. How tight the primer pockets are (primer seating pressure), concentricity, case volume, cartridge base to shoulder (CBTS) consistency, neck tension, the list goes on and on.


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[Jake Larsen]

Wouldn't bet on that kind of brass life in lapua 223 though unless they were ran very soft. Not much metal around the primer pockets.

Even with the SRP? Going to SRP in my .308 and 7mm SAWII made a big difference in case life, and also helped drop the ES numbers significantly. I’m running both very hot


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[armiller1991]

Tagging to review later.
Thanks

 

[Marbles]

All cases are numbered, decided to reload them, this time with 22 gr N135. I will shoot in order and compare chronograph data to case capacity. This time I trimmed all brass just to keep neck length consistent. I'll shoot them tomorrow and update. I need to refresh on how to work with correlation in Excel.

 

[Jake Leibke]

A little back ground. I’ve been reloading for several years but more volume the last 5 or so. My father in law reloaded and never sorted brass and not sure if he ever bought any either, was always picking up range stuff. That’s kinda where I learned to start. So I’ve mostly used the same type of brass and not paid attention to firings etc until the last few years.

Here’s some recent experience. Picked up a tikka 243. All I had was mixed brass from the father in law. Didn’t pay much attention to head stamp. Working up some pressure tests I went from one load not showing pressure to the next 1/2 gr higher blowing a primer and extractor spring and plunger.

Got home and was inspecting cases and noticed there was 3 different head stamps, FC, Winchester and RP. The FC was the one that blew the primer. Decided to weigh a random 5 of each headstamp.

Pic of weights of each along with es listed on right side.

I was surprised at results. Mainly with federal being that much heavier and not as consistent.

Just for giggles I weighed some Alpha brass I have for my 22 creedmoor. Again only 5 random. This batch has been shot 6 times.

To say I was shocked at the consistency of the Alpha was an understatement. I have one bunch of 100 cases of the alpha that have 12 firings and no signs of slowing down. This alpha is basically the only high end brass I’ve used for this long. I did have a gun I bought Lapua brass for but only had 2 firings on that brass and sold the gun.

I bought some Alpha 260 brass I’m going to neck size down for the 243 now.


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[Magma]

Lapua brass isn’t the end all beat all. Lots of good American manufacturers also that are as good or better. Peterson, alpha, ADG come to mind

 

[Montana Slim]

A little back ground. I’ve been reloading for several years but more volume the last 5 or so. My father in law reloaded and never sorted brass and not sure if he ever bought any either, was always picking up range stuff. That’s kinda where I learned to start. So I’ve mostly used the same type of brass and not paid attention to firings etc until the last few years.

Here’s some recent experience. Picked up a tikka 243. All I had was mixed brass from the father in law. Didn’t pay much attention to head stamp. Working up some pressure tests I went from one load not showing pressure to the next 1/2 gr higher blowing a primer and extractor spring and plunger.

Got home and was inspecting cases and noticed there was 3 different head stamps, FC, Winchester and RP. The FC was the one that blew the primer. Decided to weigh a random 5 of each headstamp.

Pic of weights of each along with es listed on right side.

I was surprised at results. Mainly with federal being that much heavier and not as consistent.

Just for giggles I weighed some Alpha brass I have for my 22 creedmoor. Again only 5 random. This batch has been shot 6 times.

To say I was shocked at the consistency of the Alpha was an understatement. I have one bunch of 100 cases of the alpha that have 12 firings and no signs of slowing down. This alpha is basically the only high end brass I’ve used for this long. I did have a gun I bought Lapua brass for but only had 2 firings on that brass and sold the gun.

I bought some Alpha 260 brass I’m going to neck size down for the 243 now.


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This is exactly what I meant with my earlier post... just that you should be careful when switching brass when already pushing pressure