FOC benefit, Short DL

[Read1t48]

Question for you guys...

Can a short draw length benefit from a heavier arrow or FOC?

I have a 26” draw length. I have been successful bow hunting last 3 years with Easton axis 400g and 100g trocars. Bow is dialed. I shoot all the time. I’ve always had good shots. But every shot has gone ‘right’ -animal stopped, good range, good shot control, etc. I’ve listened to too many podcasts about those times when the shot doesn’t go perfect and that’s when FOC and heavier arrow can make a difference.

I was shooting with a buddy the other day and he was blowing through my bag with field tips. (Heavier draw weight and arrow). My arrow was getting way less penetration and it made me question my set up. I am shooting 63#. Joy. No problems and could easily go up to gain speed but not sure if that’s the right solution. Ive never shot an animal past 53 yds but I presume a heavier arrow could reduce my ability to shoot longer distances. In target sessions, I go out to 80yds with FP’s and BH’s just for the practice and groups are good.

Thoughts?

 

[Blockcaver]

Why worry and change? You are doing very well! Different may prove worse! Keep taking good shoots and god luck!

 

[Beendare]

These are the most highly debated topics in bowhunting.

I've played with a very high FOC in the 28% range....and didn't get the consistent accuracy I was getting from my avg 15%-18% range. That much point weight seemed to destabilize the arrow. You will get others that say the opposite. FYI the Easton recommended range is 8%-16% I believe.

Going from very light arrows decades ago to a heavier arrow was an eye opener for me. My heavier arrows in a word were more 'Lethal' and my success increased dramatically. I was shooting arrows in the 360-380gr range in an overdraw....and moved to the mid 400's.

I have since settled on a 500-ish gr arrow in my 70# compound as a good compromise between speed, quiet bow and trajectory. Most of the experienced bowhunters I know have done something similar settling in the 450-550gr range. I do go much heavier with my stick bow setups usually 12 GPP...to quiet them and make a light poundage bow more effective on game.

Some of these factors such as FOC and arrow weight are highly emphasized on Internet forums.
My take; The only absolute most critical factor that cannot be disputed is bow tuning for perfect arrow flight. Everything else is subjective.even a tiny wobble to your arrow will result in a huge loss of effectiveness.

So is a heavy arrow or high FOC a must? I would recommend testing whatever setup you choose to get the perfect arrow flight and tuning criteria above.

 

[mfllood3800]

The short answer- I wouldn't have an issue going to a 125G broad head, and testing the results down range. Your shorter arrow (assuming you have them cut down to reflect your DL and it is in the middle of the spine chart) can handle more front weight.

In the end would 25 gr make a huge difference ? That depends on you, the situation, the distance, the placement and the animals movement. More goes into successful hunting than set up. Definitely maximize your % for greater success. That is revealed at the target down range with ever you use.

If you do have poundage left in the bow, and it isn't an issue for you to draw back, by all means I would be utilizing that if the bow still groups and tunes great.

 

[MattB]

Don't over think it. One thing to consider on the bag penetration differential is that, unless you were shooting the same arrows out of both bows it is likely there are other factors that were affecting the relative penetration.

 

[Trial153]

Total weight trumps FOC . In fact most everything trumps FOC.

 

[gdpolk]

If your goal is a complete pass through when things go awry the best way to stack the deck in your favor in order of importance is to build your arrows as follows. These concepts aren't really opinion, they have all be painstakingly studied by Ed Ashby with published and lengthy reports filled with objective data. They are worth reading if you have the time and are all availible for free through the Traditional Bowhunting Magazine website:

1. Have BOMBPROOF arrows. Any arrow or component that fails on impact with bone will stop all penetration nearly immediately. The arrow and all components must be able to survive impact with anything your prey has to offer it.
2. Have perfectly tuned arrows for your setup. 99% perfect is not good enough. It's either perfect or its not. Having perfectly tuned arrows makes them shoot more accurately (less likely to hit bones and other undesirable things) but also makes them more efficient in flight and impact.
3. Increase the overall weight to >550 grains total weight and FOC to 20-35%. These two goals directly impact each other and come hand in hand. In my opinion an ideal weight is 650-700 grains at 30-35% FOC but only if you can achieve this with a perfectly tuned shaft.
4. Have a cut on contact, 2-blade broadhead with a honed and refined edge
5. Tapered shafts and smooth lines/transitions (no serrated broadheads) have less resistance and penetrate better.
6. IF bone is hit a single bevel design is typically far superior in penetration to a double bevel design.

 

[hokiehunter373]

You’re not gonna find better answers than what’s already been posted above


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[OR Archer]

Where are you located at in Oregon? I can possible help you out.

 

[Read1t48]

Where are you located at in Oregon? I can possible help you out.

Thanks! I’ll send you a PM

 

[Read1t48]

Thanks for all the advice and replies. I have read quite a bit of stuff on Ashby, along with podcasts featuring him, which is what took me down this path. I don’t doubt his work or the lethality of a heavier arrow. I just feel like it’s a more challenging endeavor for me, or maybe not even possible to approach that weight, — because of a shorter DL than most.

And I’m a bit nervous to do it when my bow is shooting well now with a set up that is as well tuned as it’s ever been and certainly tuned to my expertise.

 

[jaximus]

ill add some things. im an FoC guy, but a midweight arrow guy.

first, you said "easton axis 400g" referencing it as arrow weight but is that the number on the arrow, 400? if so, that means 400 spine, so thats something different than arrow weight.

we would need to know more about your bow specs to build you an ideal arrow, but thats for later...

anyway, youre in the perfect wheelhouse for a great arrow. with your DL, you can use an arrow cut in the 24-25" of carbon range and use a 340 spine(would cover nearly all bow speeds and up front weights) or maybe 400s(depending on speed, up front weight) and build a good midweight arrow and have high FoC.

midweight arrows with high FoC are great. you get penetration power and good trajectory.

FoC got a bad reputation because it wasnt understood correctly by some at first and misinformation spread quickly. its not simply adding weight up front. the arrow system must be built to accomodate it, meaning having the proper spine to handle the destabilization at launch. FoC helps with getting perfect arrow flight (which is most important). it stabilizes the arrow. its physics. the point has more inertia than the rest of the arrow, meaning it resists change better. it stays on its trajectory through wind. (think of the whole idea behind a drop away. inertia from the tip makes stay put as the rest drops and the arrow hits repeatedly in the same spot.) the same inertia works better with higher FoC, but ONLY when the spine is correct.

FoC is most advantageous when your arrow strikes a target. the point inertia resists deflection and keeps the arrows path more true to the initial trajectory. its especially helpful when the animal is moving or if bones are hit as they are giving extra deflection. having more mass already moving along the initial trajectory improves penetration, where if that same mass was distributed in the shaft instead, less weight would be driven along the initial trajectory. more mass would be deflected, meaning less penetration.

what FoC also does is demand a proper spine. this means the trailing arrow is more stiff. that results in less impact flex (wasted penetration potential). weight that is moving directly behind the cutting surface is more 'usable' for penetration, so arrows flying perfectly straight(perfect flight(#1), arrows that dont deflect (high point inertia) weight up tight behind the broadhead or arrows that are stiff are best. FoC helps with all of those.

 

[MattB]

Threads like these highlight the folly of social media:
- Guy always has success withhis current set-up.
- Guy listens to podcasts about how pother guys (likely directly or indirectly selling a product) try to bombproof their set-up.
- Guys doubts the equipment with which he has had and starts down a rabbit hole.

 

[MattB]

If your goal is a complete pass through when things go awry the best way to stack the deck in your favor in order of importance is to build your arrows as follows. These concepts aren't really opinion, they have all be painstakingly studied by Ed Ashby with published and lengthy reports filled with objective data. They are worth reading if you have the time and are all availible for free through the Traditional Bowhunting Magazine website:

1. Have BOMBPROOF arrows. Any arrow or component that fails on impact with bone will stop all penetration nearly immediately. The arrow and all components must be able to survive impact with anything your prey has to offer it.
2. Have perfectly tuned arrows for your setup. 99% perfect is not good enough. It's either perfect or its not. Having perfectly tuned arrows makes them shoot more accurately (less likely to hit bones and other undesirable things) but also makes them more efficient in flight and impact.
3. Increase the overall weight to >550 grains total weight and FOC to 20-35%. These two goals directly impact each other and come hand in hand. In my opinion an ideal weight is 650-700 grains at 30-35% FOC but only if you can achieve this with a perfectly tuned shaft.
4. Have a cut on contact, 2-blade broadhead with a honed and refined edge
5. Tapered shafts and smooth lines/transitions (no serrated broadheads) have less resistance and penetrate better.
6. IF bone is hit a single bevel design is typically far superior in penetration to a double bevel design.

After structural integrity (#1) and arrow flight (#2), you're list is re-ordered relative to Ashby's.
- 3rd is shaft diameter to ferrule diameter ratio
- 4th is arrow mass
- 5th is FOC
- 6th is BH edge bevel
- 7th is shaft profile
- 8th is shaft finish
- 9th is BH finish
- 10th is impact force

 

[hokiehunter373]

Threads like these highlight the folly of social media:
- Guy always has success withhis current set-up.
- Guy listens to podcasts about how pother guys (likely directly or indirectly selling a product) try to bombproof their set-up.
- Guys doubts the equipment with which he has had and starts down a rabbit hole.

Often time the rabbit hole leads to learning a wealth of information. These sites and threads are what spark my interest and send me on crazy searches to figure out as much info as I can on a certain subject to make be a better hunter. What’s wrong with that? Sure, it’s great to have a setup that already works and yes, some people fall victim to those just selling a product, but if they’re anything like me it’s search search search until you truly understand the subject. Then the sales pitch didn’t matter outside the fact that the end result is a better understanding of a topic. That benefits everyone.


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[MattB]

Often time the rabbit hole leads to learning a wealth of information. These sites and threads are what spark my interest and send me on crazy searches to figure out as much info as I can on a certain subject to make be a better hunter. What’s wrong with that? Sure, it’s great to have a setup that already works and yes, some people fall victim to those just selling a product, but if they’re anything like me it’s search search search until you truly understand the subject. Then the sales pitch didn’t matter outside the fact that the end result is a better understanding of a topic. That benefits everyone.


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Knowledge is no doubt a good thing. The problem with the internet is that it can be really hard to figure out what is and what is not legitimate.

I'll just leave it at this as an example (no offense intended to anyone here): the best bowhunters I've hunted with don't know or care to know what their FOC is. They just go out and kill stuff, blissfully ignorant of the fact that their set-up's don't pass muster based on "internet chatboard" standards.

 

[Read1t48]

HH373 - I get your point. I've never weighed my arrow set-up. But I should. I've had more complete pass thru's than not and the one animal that my arrow didn't go through, even through penetration was just average, did not even take a single step. But I'm trying to keep an open mind. All my kills have been perfect broadside shots. That was my choosing -- if I don't feel comfortable with the shot, I have no problem letting the animal walk. I've done it! I would continue to do this with a heavier arrow set-up.

My set-up is effective, but I spend enough time shooting with other guys to see how much more penetration guys are getting with heavier arrow set-ups. I have a few buddies that constantly tweak their stuff -- to the point that sometimes they go full circle and end up with the same set-up they started with before they went down the rabbit hole. But as others have mentioned, they have gained a lot of knowledge on their set-up, how their equipment tunes, or doesn't, and it makes them a better archer. I haven't shot an elk yet with my bow and I'm trying to be most responsible for the shot -- if there is a legitimate benefit to having better penetration -- and I think there is at my DL and set-up, than I feel like I should investigate to help increase my odds of recovering an animal. Thanks again for all the feedback. It's appreciated and no offense taken on any.

 

[hokiehunter373]

HH373 - I get your point. I've never weighed my arrow set-up. But I should. I've had more complete pass thru's than not and the one animal that my arrow didn't go through, even through penetration was just average, did not even take a single step. But I'm trying to keep an open mind. All my kills have been perfect broadside shots. That was my choosing -- if I don't feel comfortable with the shot, I have no problem letting the animal walk. I've done it! I would continue to do this with a heavier arrow set-up.

My set-up is effective, but I spend enough time shooting with other guys to see how much more penetration guys are getting with heavier arrow set-ups. I have a few buddies that constantly tweak their stuff -- to the point that sometimes they go full circle and end up with the same set-up they started with before they went down the rabbit hole. But as others have mentioned, they have gained a lot of knowledge on their set-up, how their equipment tunes, or doesn't, and it makes them a better archer. I haven't shot an elk yet with my bow and I'm trying to be most responsible for the shot -- if there is a legitimate benefit to having better penetration -- and I think there is at my DL and set-up, than I feel like I should investigate to help increase my odds of recovering an animal. Thanks again for all the feedback. It's appreciated and no offense taken on any.

I was advocating for you not against you


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[Beendare]

I'll just leave it at this as an example (no offense intended to anyone here): the best bowhunters I've hunted with don't know or care to know what their FOC is. They just go out and kill stuff, blissfully ignorant of the fact that their set-up's don't pass muster based on "internet chatboard" standards.

Yep...my experience also.

But there are guys still convinced that they need to build an arrow to a certain high FOC criteria.....and threads go on for pages [the 'Rabbit hole'] on how to accomplish this. Silly.

Its like shooting a bow...when you stop focusing on all of the 'do this'...and 'do thats'....and just concentrate on the spot...you shoot better.

 

[MattB]

HH373 - I get your point. I've never weighed my arrow set-up. But I should. I've had more complete pass thru's than not and the one animal that my arrow didn't go through, even through penetration was just average, did not even take a single step. But I'm trying to keep an open mind. All my kills have been perfect broadside shots. That was my choosing -- if I don't feel comfortable with the shot, I have no problem letting the animal walk. I've done it! I would continue to do this with a heavier arrow set-up.

My set-up is effective, but I spend enough time shooting with other guys to see how much more penetration guys are getting with heavier arrow set-ups. I have a few buddies that constantly tweak their stuff -- to the point that sometimes they go full circle and end up with the same set-up they started with before they went down the rabbit hole. But as others have mentioned, they have gained a lot of knowledge on their set-up, how their equipment tunes, or doesn't, and it makes them a better archer. I haven't shot an elk yet with my bow and I'm trying to be most responsible for the shot -- if there is a legitimate benefit to having better penetration -- and I think there is at my DL and set-up, than I feel like I should investigate to help increase my odds of recovering an animal. Thanks again for all the feedback. It's appreciated and no offense taken on any.

With the advent of rangefinder, heavier arrows aren't nearly as much of a compromise as they used to be. If your arrows are actually 500 gr., I wouldn't add. If 400 gr., going up might yield better results on larger game.

A more efficient BH might be another consideration. I've only killed one animal with the Trocars (Shiras moose) and I was not impressed with their performance. The bedge retention was poor.

Other than that, I personally wouldn't mess with success.