Kenai River King Salmon - Circling the Drain

[Rich M]

Why cant they close the fishery for a few years? No harvest would let the fish lay eggs. Pretty simple solution actually.

 

[menhaden_man]

The need to see a bigger picture to understand the ups and downs of Pacific salmon abundances

Abstract. There are more Pacific salmon in the ocean recently than in recorded history. Increases are believed to be related to shifts in climate but specific,

academic.oup.com

 

[william schmaltz]

Why cant they close the fishery for a few years? No harvest would let the fish lay eggs. Pretty simple solution actually.

Walter summed it up well in his original post. There is a Kenai River management plan. This lays out the tiered openings/restrictions and how they are somewhat reciprocal for all user groups.

They are beholden to the plan. The meeting next month will open the plan up to potential modification. Only the Board of Game can modify the plan, not the Fish and Game. The FnG can make recommendations (support/neutral/not support) to proposals to the board, but the board gets a final say. Keep in mind that the FnG is operating at the will of the commissioner, who is appointed by the governor. The Board of Fish and Board of Game members are also appointed by the governor. So when we have governors getting lobby money and with their feet to the fire to create revenue, the waters get very muddy. Typically the majority of BOG and BOF members are current or formal commercial users.

People love to rag on fish and game departments. Few realize it’s a big political game and decisions are often outside the office of actual biologists. Often times the people running the show and who are exploiting the resources for maximum profit are voted in by sportsmen, as sportsmen tend to vote Republican and that’s typically the party of commercial use. Hard pill for most of us to swallow. And no matter how many times I’ve tried to drum up questions about how fish/wildlife are managed on debate stages, the media decide it’s more important to ask them about how they will treat the 4 trans students in some high school in Anchorage instead. The sad part is that voting the other way just means we lose opportunity and watch mismanagement by another method.

 

[Flyjunky]

Walter summed it up well in his original post. There is a Kenai River management plan. This lays out the tiered openings/restrictions and how they are somewhat reciprocal for all user groups.

They are beholden to the plan. The meeting next month will open the plan up to potential modification. Only the Board of Game can modify the plan, not the Fish and Game. The FnG can make recommendations (support/neutral/not support) to proposals to the board, but the board gets a final say. Keep in mind that the FnG is operating at the will of the commissioner, who is appointed by the governor. The Board of Fish and Board of Game members are also appointed by the governor. So when we have governors getting lobby money and with their feet to the fire to create revenue, the waters get very muddy. Typically the majority of BOG and BOF members are current or formal commercial users.

People love to rag on fish and game departments. Few realize it’s a big political game and decisions are often outside the office of actual biologists. Often times the people running the show and who are exploiting the resources for maximum profit are voted in by sportsmen, as sportsmen tend to vote Republican and that’s typically the party of commercial use. Hard pill for most of us to swallow. And no matter how many times I’ve tried to drum up questions about how fish/wildlife are managed on debate stages, the media decide it’s more important to ask them about how they will treat the 4 trans students in some high school in Anchorage instead. The sad part is that voting the other way just means we lose opportunity and watch mismanagement by another method.

Well said. It’s really no different with our game animals and biologists. Most of the time our biologists know exactly what needs to be done but politicians and their corresponding donors have different ideas..same story throughout our entire country on every issue.

 

[Rich M]

Walter summed it up well in his original post. There is a Kenai River management plan. This lays out the tiered openings/restrictions and how they are somewhat reciprocal for all user groups.

They are beholden to the plan. The meeting next month will open the plan up to potential modification. Only the Board of Game can modify the plan, not the Fish and Game. The FnG can make recommendations (support/neutral/not support) to proposals to the board, but the board gets a final say. Keep in mind that the FnG is operating at the will of the commissioner, who is appointed by the governor. The Board of Fish and Board of Game members are also appointed by the governor. So when we have governors getting lobby money and with their feet to the fire to create revenue, the waters get very muddy. Typically the majority of BOG and BOF members are current or formal commercial users.

People love to rag on fish and game departments. Few realize it’s a big political game and decisions are often outside the office of actual biologists. Often times the people running the show and who are exploiting the resources for maximum profit are voted in by sportsmen, as sportsmen tend to vote Republican and that’s typically the party of commercial use. Hard pill for most of us to swallow. And no matter how many times I’ve tried to drum up questions about how fish/wildlife are managed on debate stages, the media decide it’s more important to ask them about how they will treat the 4 trans students in some high school in Anchorage instead. The sad part is that voting the other way just means we lose opportunity and watch mismanagement by another method.

I looked at scheduling a trip to Kenai this past year - 2023. The place is overrun wiith folks. The big rivers get hit by 1,000 guides and DIY fishermen daily. Theyve closed a lot of the flyout rivers to fishing…. I started looking to other areas where the capts sea fish for kings. Kept banging me head on the cost. Everything is expensive in AK.

Yes, the scenery is beautiful but i can see most of the wildlife just down the street at Seaworld.

Ultimately planning on going to Costa Rica 2024 for comparable trip at 1/2 price. Same amount of fishing and sight seeing. Airfare is way cheaper, dont need a car, room is tied-in w 3 charter fishing trips.

Will go to AK at some point, just disappointed in the overall cost vs what you actually get. It is overfished, and F&G cant fix it with liberal seasons.

They need to do something instead of steadily providing Russia w fish. If you want to save the fish, shut the fishing down for 5 yrs. They do it w red snapper and striped bass on east coast of us and we at least get short seasons w plenty of fish.

You say it is republican’s fault. I dunno, none of those bastards do anything for the middle class masses, just the fringe elements and paid-for rioters.

 

[Coveyleader]

I looked at scheduling a trip to Kenai this past year - 2023. The place is overrun wiith folks. The big rivers get hit by 1,000 guides and DIY fishermen daily. Theyve closed a lot of the flyout rivers to fishing…. I started looking to other areas where the capts sea fish for kings. Kept banging me head on the cost. Everything is expensive in AK.

Yes, the scenery is beautiful but i can see most of the wildlife just down the street at Seaworld.

Ultimately planning on going to Costa Rica 2024 for comparable trip at 1/2 price. Same amount of fishing and sight seeing. Airfare is way cheaper, dont need a car, room is tied-in w 3 charter fishing trips.

Will go to AK at some point, just disappointed in the overall cost vs what you actually get. It is overfished, and F&G cant fix it with liberal seasons.

They need to do something instead of steadily providing Russia w fish. If you want to save the fish, shut the fishing down for 5 yrs. They do it w red snapper and striped bass on east coast of us and we at least get short seasons w plenty of fish.

You say it is republican’s fault. I dunno, none of those bastards do anything for the middle class masses, just the fringe elements and paid-for rioters.

Make no mistake, you could stack 1000 boats a day on the Kenai, and they could all take home their daily limits, all of them. That isn't doing squat compared to what is happening in the salt in terms of overall destruction of the species.


The whole "close the season" in the fresh water is a slap in the face. Weir counts, sonar be damned. It's a disgrace that we just keep letting our salmon stock get destroyed, and it ain't the guy throwing a "pixie" that is the root of the issue.

 

[william schmaltz]

You say it is republican’s fault.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

I simply laid out the dichotomy of how neither political party puts sportsmen first. Politicians on both sides are wetting their beaks with big money that wants us out of the damn way.

It has been explained that Alaska’s system has taken those decisions from Fish and Game and given them to a board appointed by politicians. I can keep explaining it to you, but can’t understand it for you. If we want to “just shut it down,” it comes from the board made up of commercial users. Good luck. Our governor put together a trawl bycatch task force a couple years ago to look at the impacts of sending seafood to McDonald and overseas at the cost of raping our oceans. You can probably guess the types of folks on that task force and what they’ve accomplished to this point. Smoke and mirrors.

 

[WalterH]

For at least 120 years, there has been a commercial salmon fishery in Cook Inlet. Large kings, even record setting kings, were common until about 20 years ago when the guided sport fishery really grew. The sport and guided sport industry have been very strong politically and even now on weak run forecasts, are allowed to catch and release these fish. Catch and release fishing of kings needed for spawning has been common.

I find it ironic that pictures of large kings being caught and released are being used to drum up support for the sport view of conservation.

Catch and release mortality on kings has been well studied and is acknowledged as an impact by mangers, sport fisherman and guides. In the toughest of times, catch and release isn't allowed either as I am sure you are aware.

CNR on mature kings kills approximately 5% of the fish that get caught. That number is functionally zero if the fish is handled well.

Nets kill 100% of the fish they catch.

Saying the impacts of the two are comparable on the Kenai system doesn’t pass the red face test.

I agree that the massive guide fleet, especially during the kill them all era, has been a significant contributing factor to the current situation.

 

[Rich M]

Don’t put words in my mouth.

I simply laid out the dichotomy of how neither political party puts sportsmen first. Politicians on both sides are wetting their beaks with big money that wants us out of the damn way.

It has been explained that Alaska’s system has taken those decisions from Fish and Game and given them to a board appointed by politicians. I can keep explaining it to you, but can’t understand it for you. If we want to “just shut it down,” it comes from the board made up of commercial users. Good luck. Our governor put together a trawl bycatch task force a couple years ago to look at the impacts of sending seafood to McDonald and overseas at the cost of raping our oceans. You can probably guess the types of folks on that task force and what they’ve accomplished to this point. Smoke and mirrors.

I read your post as the republicans fault cause they like commercial fishing.

I've also lived thru a handful of fisheries closures - yes, they suck but they work. And yes, we aren't the only country netting the salmon at sea.

Bottom line is either those in charge want to fix it or not. Until recreational folks start lining the pockets of the greedy, not much is gonna change.

 

[AKBC]

Until recreational folks start lining the pockets of the greedy, not much is gonna change.

The recreational folks have absolutely been lining the pockets on the Kenai; and they are winning politically. Bob Penney (and others) spent a lot of money to skew the allocation from commercial to recreational and was a very big factor in getting the current Republican governor elected. Meanwhile, the politicians on the other side are also pushing for liberalized personal use and sport fishing opportunities so "Alaskans can fill their freezers". (BTW, in about another month there will be many Alaskans looking to get rid of those freezer burned 2023 salmon so they can fill those freezers again.)

The facts are that the fish did great for 100 years when the allocation was primarily commercial but over the last 20-30 years the freshwater guide industry/recreational/personal use fisheries have grown enormously. Since then the king salmon runs have struggled as sport fishermen have either selectively harvested the bigger fish, damaged the spawning beds, and/or caught and released spawners (some of them multiple times). So to reply to your comment; recreational lobbying dollars have not helped at all.

Let's be objective though; all or almost all king salmon runs that originate in the Gulf of Alaska are struggling with reduced numbers and smaller fish. Ocean conditions are certainly a factor. The commercial salmon industry in Cook Inlet has been massively restricted and it's time the freshwater guys stopped messing with the kings needed for spawning.

 

[S.Clancy]

I'm sure it's a factor, how big of one I'm not sure. The ocean only has so much food and when it's flooded with sockeye it doesn't help. We have to remember other countries are flooding the oceans with hatch fish was well.

I believe they eat wildly different things when they are in the ocean.

I know everyone here hates Matt Rinella, but his Hunt Quietly podcast had an episode on this topic with his brother Dan who is a fisheries researcher out of Alaska. Pretty interesting.

 

[WalterH]

The facts are that the fish did great for 100 years when the allocation was primarily commercial but over the last 20-30 years the freshwater guide industry/recreational/personal use fisheries have grown enormously. Since then the king salmon runs have struggled as sport fishermen have either selectively harvested the bigger fish, damaged the spawning beds, and/or caught and released spawners (some of them multiple times).

It would be great if you could share some data that supports this position. Specifically that everything was just peachy before sport fishing blew up in the 1980's.

I think the actual record tells a very different story.

"And just like that, commercial fishing in Cook Inlet boomed. Thousands of fish were hauled in by drift-net and fish traps, sent off to the canneries, packed and shipped down to the Lower 48.

Combined with fish traps in Cook Inlet and other areas, poor management by the Federal Government, and the foreign fleet fishing just off shore, salmon runs plummeted statewide, and by the late 1950s were considered a federal disaster.

It took nearly three decades of strict regulation and management, but in 1980, a record return of salmon surged back into Alaskan waters."

The History of Upper Cook Inlet Salmon Fisheries, Alaska Department of Fish and Game

Alaska Wildlife News is an online magazine published by the Alaska Department of Fish and Game

www.adfg.alaska.gov

Nice try though.

 

[menhaden_man]

What’s the hatchery production like on the Kenai? Subyearling vs yearling production?

 

[WalterH]

Optimal escapement goal supported at advisory committee meeting | Peninsula Clarion

How many king salmon does it take to rebuild a run, and what restrictions should be in place to protect king salmon?

www.peninsulaclarion.com

 

[WalterH]

What’s the hatchery production like on the Kenai? Subyearling vs yearling production?

No hatchery program on the Kenai and it needs to stay that way.

Some strays from some of the systems to the south have been documented, but it is pretty rare that they wind up in the Kenai.

 

[TaperPin]

This is just Alaska fish trivia, but maybe it helps someone understand the commercial fishing industry that many in the lower 48 don’t have a feel for since it’s so far removed.

Just like the move away from family farms and ranches as larger corporate outfits buy them up, a similar thing has happened to Alaskan fishing. There are still families fishing their own boats, just like some family farms and ranches still exist, but make no mistake about it the days of an entire industry being little guys is gone.

It gets even more interesting as you look at the processors who buy fish. These are usually owned by Seattle companies, who in tern are owned by Japanese Companies. Processors aren’t going to give away or even sell ice to boats that don’t return fish to them, and it’s a challenge to get large amounts of ice otherwise. I don’t know how the situation has changed, but many municipal sources of ice have been proposed over the years.

I really like the small fish processors outside the grip of the big Seattle companies, and hopefully the niche for small family run fishing will get stronger, but I‘m 20 years behind in what’s been happening.

The charter boats don’t bother me - the few fish that are caught return a lot more back to the community per fish than commercial fishing.

There are salmon that are ocean catchable outside the Kenai - the fish don’t fly south for the winter.

One of my favorite memories of Ninilchik was going to my uncle’s smoke shack and watching them fillet fresh caught salmon and the smell of the smoker. I’ve always wondered why the somewhat dried out smoked salmon hasn’t been more popular over the years - the texture and taste were so much better than the soft almost canned texture of the vacuum packed stuff sold now.

As with most state politicians, money for personal benefit talks, and thus the tourism industry leans toward cruise ship money, and fishing leans towards big corporate. I’m happy to see any local leaders who are able to organize and find ways to keep more of the money in the pockets of Alaskans.

 

[JackOfAllTrades]

In the few summers that I spent in AK, when throwing the ole 'Alaskan Grey Fly' in Seward, it was quite obvious that when the fishing boats appeared from around the corner, the fishing shut right off.
It seemed that there was hardly a damn fish that would escape past the nets and make it into the river and to the recreationalist. Yet when the numbers are down, its the sport fisherman who are hit with closures first.

 

[AKBC]

In the few summers that I spent in AK, when throwing the ole 'Alaskan Grey Fly' in Seward, it was quite obvious that when the fishing boats appeared from around the corner, the fishing shut right off.
It seemed that there was hardly a damn fish that would escape past the nets and make it into the river and to the recreationalist. Yet when the numbers are down, its the sport fisherman who are hit with closures first.

You could not be more wrong about that. When is escapement is low, commercial fishing is restricted first to allow more fish into the rivers. It is rare for sport fishing to be closed although it has been occurring on king runs throughout southcentral AK lately.

Also, the red run you are talking about is a hatchery run and the "fishing boats" you refer to are catching fish for hatchery cost recovery so that the hatchery is funded to continue to produce fish. If the cost recovery fishing ended the hatchery would stop producing and there would be no fish at all for anyone.

 

[AKBC]

in 1980, a record return of salmon surged back into Alaskan waters."

Yep, and in 1985 the record 97 pound 4 ounce king salmon was caught. And then the guides and sport fishing exploded and the fish have become fewer and smaller for the last ~20 years.

 

[Rich M]

Seeing a difference in opinion from the locals. Bottomline is non-commercially fished species rarely if ever have a decline in numbers across the board. The fish that generate money get hammered. Saying that Japan owns the fish houses says a lot. They sure eat a lot of fish over there.

I never understood the fishermen not being willing to stop for a couple years to help the fish.