Logging Tongass National Forest

[WV Mountaineer]

To be fair, WV Mountaineer has not logged back in since his post. Hopefully he is enjoying some good hunting.

Nope. Unfortunately I’ve been working instead of hunting. Hopefully that will change at the end of this week

 

[WV Mountaineer]

Wv mountaineer is scouring the Googlesphere for ANYTHING that proves you wrong. YOU JUST WAIT!

I dunno about you guys but I think this logging is a great idea. Science and common sense be damned. Not only do we get to trust private industry to tip toe around one of the best salmon fisheries in the world, but we also get to give our hard earned tax money to the same private sector via subsidies...all so they can turn around and sell the timber to china at a profit....because they couldn't make a profit if we didn't pay those subsidies. Sounds like the american way to me! This is a win win! In all seriousness, the Tongass doesn't have any salmon... That's all fake news. Clear cut it all and bring the wildlife back!

The great thing about rockslide is you have a cult of preservationists that like to tickle one another’s back side while pretending to know what they talk about.

Brock, what do you do for a living? Do you have any pertinent experience in forest management? If so, was it private or government. Or, like me, was it both? Some people don’t need google to prove their point. They already know what they are talking about.

 

[WV Mountaineer]

I'm guessing he is thinking about edge effects. Same argument I hear when people promote timber removal etc for ski areas. Doesn't hold much water..

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I'm guessing he is thinking about edge effects. Same argument I hear when people promote timber removal etc for ski areas. Doesn't hold much water..

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Your guess is wrong.

The one thing that amazes me about internet hunting forums is everyone but a professionally licensed and experienced forester, knows forest management.
I’m pissed. My education and career has been a waste.

 

[Clarktar]

Your guess is wrong.

The one thing that amazes me about internet hunting forums is everyone but a professionally licensed and experienced forester, knows forest management.
I’m pissed. My education and career has been a waste.

My guesses usually are. Glad the internet amazes you. It does me too! I'm not a licensed forester. I've take a few forest ecology classes but I was mostly high in the back row.

In general I don't put much weight in someone's credentials or licenses. Lots of people get degrees, get certified, and are completely incompetent in their profrssion (I am in no way saying this is the case with you). I tend to pay attention to what they say, how they perform in their professional capacity. Part of that is articulating their points, and supporting those points with credible information (in this case some forest ecology literature that supports the points being made, marbles post was an example of such).

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[brocksw]

The great thing about rockslide is you have a cult of preservationists that like to tickle one another’s back side while pretending to know what they talk about.

Brock, what do you do for a living? Do you have any pertinent experience in forest management? If so, was it private or government. Or, like me, was it both? Some people don’t need google to prove their point. They already know what they are talking about.

I am in mineral resources not forestry. But what's your point? Ive continually, time after time, seen your bias heavy arguments on nearly every single political or divisive subject on this entire forum. You've been an expert in mineral resources, covid 19, conservation, politics in general, etc... HOLY SHIT MAN! Did your forestry experience make you an expert on all of those areas? The truth is you're just another opinionated, biased dude with a keyboard. Welcome to the club.

Marbles provided some good sources. His sources confirmed my sources. My sources include a very VERY large network of family and friends with decades...over 75+ years combined forestry experience and not a single one of them is supporting additional logging of the Tongass on any level. Not scientifically or economically. But I digress...your expertise trump's all others and I yield to you. Wish we could've had this discussion Months ago so I could've written you in for every single elected position I have the ability to vote on. We need a man with your far superior intellectual talents and wisdom. Good God man. Let your ego take a break, it's tired of the all knowing facade on every single topic on rokslide.

Leave the Tongass alone. Logging has a role and place. It just isn't there.

 

[Rokbar]

In every state I have hunted, the first thing we look for is cuts. Hunted in Georgia for years. Clear cuts were the most productive! At home in NC, when the USFS cut a lot more timber, cuts were the place to be. Whether it was grouse or deer. We go to Wisconsin, we look for cuts. I watch the western hunting shows, they go to burns and cuts. Wildlife thrives on manmade habitat, including bear. I don't for a second believe the USFS would cut even 15% of the Tongass. I live near one of the only virgin forests (Joyce Kilmer) in the east. Yes it is amazing to take a hike, but about worthless to hunt. The USFS is actually pretty keen on forestry management, as long as their allowed to do so. Why have forestry management schools if the practices are not allowed?

 

[brocksw]

Would you care to cite any credible science to prove that?

Did you skip forest ecology 101?

You haven't cited any credible sources either.

In every state I have hunted, the first thing we look for is cuts. Hunted in Georgia for years. Clear cuts were the most productive! At home in NC, when the USFS cut a lot more timber, cuts were the place to be. Whether it was grouse or deer. We go to Wisconsin, we look for cuts. I watch the western hunting shows, they go to burns and cuts. Wildlife thrives on manmade habitat, including bear. I don't for a second believe the USFS would cut even 15% of the Tongass. I live near one of the only virgin forests (Joyce Kilmer) in the east. Yes it is amazing to take a hike, but about worthless to hunt. The USFS is actually pretty keen on forestry management, as long as their allowed to do so. Why have forestry management schools if the practices are not allowed?

That's a pretty naive and hyperfocused lens though isn't it? Biodiversity is not all about game species during hunting season. There is much more than deer and bear to an ecological system. Where are the critters when it's not hunting season? Where do they raise offspring? Where do they winter? I don't think anyone here has spoken out against logging in general. No one has denied burns can be good. But look at the most biologically diverse places in the world, theyre almost entirely rainforests...like the Tongass.

The Tongass gets over 100" of precip a year...fire is not built into that ecosystem. The ecosystem reflects that. Wildfire in CO serves a purpose with drought and beetle kill. Logging is sure as hell not built into the Tongass ecosystem. This makes no sense economically either.

 

[Rokbar]

You haven't cited any credible sources either.

That's a pretty naive and hyperfocused lens though isn't it? Biodiversity is not all about game species during hunting season. There is much more than deer and bear to an ecological system. Where are the critters when it's not hunting season? Where do they raise offspring? Where do they winter? I don't think anyone here has spoken out against logging in general. No one has denied burns can be good. But look at the most biologically diverse places in the world, theyre almost entirely rainforests...like the Tongass.

The Tongass gets over 100" of precip a year...fire is not built into that ecosystem. The ecosystem reflects that. Wildfire in CO serves a purpose with drought and beetle kill. Logging is sure as hell not built into the Tongass ecosystem. This makes no sense economically either.

Look, I'm not here to argue with anyone! I'm just stating what I have experienced through my years hunting. If it's public land there needs to be a mix of habitat. It's a natural resource, it's a renewable resource. I'm not educated like some of you say. All I'm saying is manage the forest for best practices.

 

[Marbles]

Any and every forester on the face of the earth knows young successional growth is the foot stool to ecological diversity. It is forest ecology 101. It’s what is taught in any accredited university. And, it’s what we see while working in the woods that verifies that scientific certainty.

In simple terms, It’s why burns often become wildlife magnets. It’s also why young succession is such a boost to ecological diversity.

Frankly sir, what happened to this?

Would you care to cite any credible science to prove that?

Did you skip forest ecology 101?

Cite a source, you should have an ecology 101 text on hand to cite. The text book should also have sources in it you can look up and cite, and normally those have sources so you can look them up as well.

Now, if you look hard enough, you’ll probably find an internet source that says toxic waste dumped in the woods has benefits.

Entertaining, I guess you consider The Journal of Forest Ecology and Management to be just "an internet source." If a medical professional dismissed an paper in the Lancet so casually (this word is key) I would write them off as... Please explain why your profession should be held to a lower standard?

Do you have any pertinent experience in forest management? If so, was it private or government. Or, like me, was it both? Some people don’t need google to prove their point. They already know what they are talking about.

See my point above. Experience is a double edged sword. The way you talk makes me think you take more bite from that blade than you give. Once again, you fail to abide by the standards you demand of others. People who know what they are talking about can back it up. Those who don't, but think they do, resort to rudeness.

 

[OXN939]

In every state I have hunted

At home in NC

We go to Wisconsin

I live near one of the only virgin forests (Joyce Kilmer) in the east

Interesting to note that there are a few small biological differences between North Carolina and the Tongass. Like, how long it takes a given area of forest to mature.

My problem is the following- Trump frequently takes interest in things about which he knows literally nothing as "props" to curry favor with his base. A few examples would be the Eddie Gallagher situation, his aversion to bump stocks, suppressors and most recently AR pistols, or pulling the rug out on the Kurds. Removing protections from the Tongass is just another item on this list. If your public lands becoming a casualty of a politician's quest to get votes doesn't piss you off, that's probably a good indication that the party has you right where they want you.

 

[BuzzH]

Your guess is wrong.

The one thing that amazes me about internet hunting forums is everyone but a professionally licensed and experienced forester, knows forest management.
I’m pissed. My education and career has been a waste.

You're quick to throw others under the bus, when they may have more, different, and better qualifications than you.

I have a forestry degree with a silviculture/policy emphasis, 34 years of forestry/natural resources/forest research experience and you have no problem discounting that, every chance you get.

I would agree that when you make claims that old growth forests are ecological dead zones, it would appear your education and career may very well have been a waste...

 

[Rokbar]

Interesting to note that there are a few small biological differences between North Carolina and the Tongass. Like, how long it takes a given area of forest to mature.

My problem is the following- Trump frequently takes interest in things about which he knows literally nothing as "props" to curry favor with his base. A few examples would be the Eddie Gallagher situation, his aversion to bump stocks, suppressors and most recently AR pistols, or pulling the rug out on the Kurds. Removing protections from the Tongass is just another item on this list. If your public lands becoming a casualty of a politician's quest to get votes doesn't piss you off, that's probably a good indication that the party has you right where they want you.

Let's not go political with this please. I'm just stating what I've seen with my own two eyes everywhere I've ever been. NO, I've never been to the Tongass. My understanding is it's public land for all to enjoy. And as stated above there are bad employees in all lines of work.

 

[JohnB]

Rokbar the issue with your arguement is that your experience has nothing to do with the Tongass or other ecosystems you've never been to. You've basically just said the ecological equivalent of "My red Ferrari is fast so all red cars are fast"

 

[Rokbar]

Rokbar the issue with your arguement is that your experience has nothing to do with the Tongass or other ecosystems you've never been to. You've basically just said the ecological equivalent of "My red Ferrari is fast so all red cars are fast"

Then the people around the Tongass should push to make it a wilderness. Problem solved, no cutting of timber!

 

[Copen1822]

You guys think the option to build new roads and log new areas means clear cut it all and build roads through all the creeks??

FS timber sales have more regulation and oversight then this current election! Every possible environmental concern has to be mitigated. It is completely possible to log (yes, even clear cut!) without killing all the fish or destroying biodiversity.

The Meateater article is a hit piece meant to scare people.

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[BuzzH]

Then the people around the Tongass should push to make it a wilderness. Problem solved, no cutting of timber!

Have you ever been involved with moving wilderness designations through the Congressional process?

Secondly, there is a lot of room to maneuver between full on clear cutting and wilderness designation, and for a whole herd of good reasons.

 

[Rokbar]

Have you ever been involved with moving wilderness designations through the Congressional process?

Secondly, there is a lot of room to maneuver between full on clear cutting and wilderness designation, and for a whole herd of good reasons.

No, but I’d sure like to be involved in removing a lot of wilderness designations!!!

 

[brocksw]

No, but I’d sure like to be involved in removing a lot of wilderness designations!!!

You know when I joined this forum years ago it looked like everyone here was into this backpack style of hunting. Everyone on the forum, with perhaps a small minority included, was ideally after the same type of experience...backcountry adventure in wild places. It would seem to me that Wilderness areas not only represent a pinnacle of that so to speak, but they also guarantee that no matter how much money you make, no matter where you come from, there is a place for you and others to have that experience, no trespass fee required, no permission required. Just put the boot rubber to the ground and get to fuckin gettin.

Your statement would seem antithetical to my general undertstanding of the demographic that makes up this forum. I would urge you to spend sometime rethinking your stance on Wilderness. I'd be happy to have a conversation about it with you in PM if you're not comfortable discussing in a public thread.

 

[MTForester]

Would you care to cite any credible science to prove that?

Did you skip forest ecology 101?

No, but I think you did. Your blanket statements regarding early seral forest stands ALWAYS having more biodiversity than old growth only highlights your own lack of knowledge. You're not the only professional forester in the room.....

No one is denying that some amount of early successional forest adds to the biodiversity of the landscape. But disturbance ecology differs drastically from the East coast to the Rockies and up to the Tongass.
In general, old growth stands in the temperate rainforests have an incredibly high amount of biodiversity.

Google Scholar

scholar.google.com

I've worked in SE Alaska, I'm guessing you haven't...
Like I said; I'm hardly anti-logging, but misinformation doesn't help anyone.

 

[Pro953]

No, but I’d sure like to be involved in removing a lot of wilderness designations!!!

Curious why you say this? I was always along the same opinion as Brocks comments. But honestly is not a subject matter I have done a ton of research on. But it’s sometime like 3% in Alaska and 2% of the lower 48. What is the argument for not being able to hold a couple percent of the land mass of the lower 48 in a form that is as undisturbed as possible?

I am certainly biased for wilderness because I love to explore it. But I do understand that nobody likes being told no, and they have very restricted use.


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