Montana season change proposal

[Marshfly]

It sucks for NR to ya know.

You are guests. Sorry but that's the way it is. I moved here a few years ago and started paying taxes and making my family part of the community so I could participate as a resident.

 

[BRTreedogs]

You are guests. Sorry but that's the way it is. I moved here a few years ago and started paying taxes and making my family part of the community so I could participate as a resident.

Doesn't mean it doesn't suck.

But also you are gonna bitch when more people move there.
So in summary your gonna bitch either way.

 

[fatlander]

I don’t disagree with you guys that NR play a role in your woes and I don’t disagree that FWP could do a better job following your states code, BUT 400k more residents have exponentially more impact than NR that pay up to 20x of the amount as residents for the same opportunity.

Those new residents undoubtedly turned habitat that was once suitable to a non starter. They recreate more during calving/fawning season than the nonresident you're blaming for your diminished hunting opportunities. They drive. And a good portion of them hunt.


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[mtwarden]

If it comes to choosing deer species, I'm guessing they will offer NR's with more whitetail licenses than mule deer licenses?

Not a fan of choosing your region, I too like to hunt different parts of the state.

 

[Marshfly]

I am one of the people that came up with this proposal and I’d be happy to address any questions. There has been a pretty robust discussion on the proposal on Hunt Talk as well that would be worth a browse.

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Why were no biologists or FWP representatives on the panel? Or were there but not listed as such?

 

[fatlander]

You are guests. Sorry but that's the way it is. I moved here a few years ago and started paying taxes and making my family part of the community so I could participate as a resident.

Your taxes don’t pay for wildlife management. That’s a basic tenant of the North American model and eligibility to receive PR funds.


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[BRTreedogs]

I think if MT residents became better hunters they would have less to blame NR for.

 

[Marshfly]

I don’t disagree with you guys that NR play a role in your woes and I don’t disagree that FWP could do a better job following your states code, BUT 400k more residents have exponentially more impact than NR that pay up to 20x of the amount as residents for the same opportunity.

Those new residents undoubtedly turned habitat that was once suitable to a non starter. They recreate more during calving/fawning season than the nonresident you're blaming for your diminished hunting opportunities. They drive. And a good portion of them hunt.


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Very few of them hunt. My kids go to a school with huge numbers of new to Montana families. There are surprising few hunting families. Maybe us and one other family in my oldest's grade of over 50 kids. Not arguing that population growth isn't a factor just clarifying that very few newcomers are hunters.

 

[BRTreedogs]

Maybe MT Fwp could use some of the NR money to put on how to be successful classes.

Or possibly an adopt a resident program where a NR gets a free B tag for taking a R out for a weekend and showing them the ropes.

 

[Jason Snyder]

Also any private land only seasons are ridiculous. Either a unit needs population reduction or it doesn't.

No, this is not true.

Constantly hammering elk on public land in an effort to lower populations will eventually lead to elk that will seek refuge on private land and will be completely unavailable to public land hunters.

Private land only hunts may 1) put the onus of population reduction on the landowners completely and 2) redistribute elk so they are more available on public land.

 

[Marshfly]

No, this is not true.

Constantly hammering elk on public land in an effort to lower populations will eventually lead to elk that will seek refuge on private land and will be completely unavailable to public land hunters.

Private land only hunts may 1) put the onus of population reduction on the landowners completely and 2) redistribute elk so they are more available on public land.

I have shot elk in herds on private. Cows specifically in December. The herd did not move far and for sure did not leave the private. Maybe that was an outlier event but I don't think it was.

 

[BRTreedogs]

I think for every 10k a rancher gets for damage.

They should have to let a hunter on said property until they are successful for the season closes.

Don't wanna let any hunters on.
No money.

 

[Schaaf]

Why were no biologists or FWP representatives on the panel? Or were there but not listed as such?

We were in constant communication with FWP, especially those based in Helena, and worked with a handful of biologists throughout the process.

FWP bios being a participant of a non commissioned citizens proposal would not be appropriate or allowed.

 

[Jason Snyder]

I have shot elk in herds on private. Cows specifically in December. The herd did not move far and for sure did not leave the private. Maybe that was an outlier event but I don't think it was.

Not saying this didn’t happen, but it comes after decades of hammering elk with rifle hunts and the majority of pressure on public land. Elk learn where refuge is and realize it’s still safer on private land than public.

A friend of mine wisely said “three strands of barbed wire is some of the best elk habitat made”.

 

[Marshfly]

I think for every 10k a rancher gets for damage.

They should have to let a hunter on said property until they are successful for the season closes.

Don't wanna let any hunters on.
No money.

I can totally agree with this.

 

[mtwarden]

@Schaaf

I think almost everyone would agree we need to do more with conserving mule deer (not just us, but the entire West)- do you think limiting the discussion to mule deer would enjoy more buy in?

I feel throwing in a bunch of changes with elk into the mix may decrease buy in and find us right back where we started. Elk are certainly not in the dire straights that mule deer are in.

Just a thought.

 

[BRTreedogs]

@Schaaf

I think almost everyone would agree we need to do more with conserving mule deer (not just us, but the entire West)- do you think limiting the discussion to mule deer would enjoy more buy in?

I feel throwing in a bunch of changes with elk into the mix may decrease buy in and find us right back where we started. Elk are certainly not in the dire straights that mule deer are in.

Just a thought.

White tail push out Mulies and they reduced the whitetail b tags for NR this yr.

 

[mtwarden]

White tail push out Mulies and they reduced the whitetail b tags for NR this yr.

Definitely a competitor and sadly a better competitor . Funny someone thought it a good idea to cut back on WT B tags?????

If this proposal goes through, will be interesting see how they allocate the number of whitetail vs mule deer A tags. Could be a boon for NR's interested in hunting big whitetails?????

 

[Schaaf]

@Schaaf

I think almost everyone would agree we need to do more with conserving mule deer (not just us, but the entire West)- do you think limiting the discussion to mule deer would enjoy more buy in?

I feel throwing in a bunch of changes with elk into the mix may decrease buy in and find us right back where we started. Elk are certainly not in the dire straights that mule deer are in.

Just a thought.

One of the group's strongest beliefs is that we need to decouple mule deer and elk seasons from each other. We are one of the only states that still have that and believe that it leads to a higher mule deer harvest from people that are elk hunting that stumble into mule deer. With that in mind, it just gets backed into a corner trying to squeeze as much opportunity into a 3 month time frame without having concurrent seasons. The group strongly believes that you can't piece meal any type of mule deer changes without having unintended adverse effects on elk management. With that in mind we recommended moving archery into August with a 5 week season. I get it, it sucks hunting in August but many states do that are hotter than Montana.

 

[mtwarden]

^ valid points- thanks