Opinions on a new backcountry rifle?

[PorterM]

Hey all,
Long time lurker, first time poster. I’m looking for input on a lightweight rifle for backcountry deer, elk, and black bear hunting in Washington and Montana. I frequently backpack in for days at a time or cover many miles in a day and so I’m looking for a sub 6lb rifle naked. My current set up is a ruger American go wild 6.5cm with a Nikon 3-12x44 (I’ve only harvested deer up to this point). I find it somewhat and poorly balanced but shoots my hand loaded ablr’s well enough. I want to expand into bigger game so looking for more umpf than the 6.5cm without getting out of control with recoil in a light rifle.

Budget is sub $2000 for the rifle and I am keen on putting the Swarovski z3 4-12 BT on top.

6.8 western seems like the ideal cartridge for the job, or fast twist 280ai. 7PRC seems like too much recoil in a sub 6lb rifle. I don’t like to use the minimum power for the job so the 6.5prc for elk seems like it works for some people but isn’t something that would be my first choice.

Options I’ve found that seem to fit the bill:
-Tikka t3x super lite in 6.5prc (somewhat concerned about .264cal on elk)
-Savage 110 ultralight 280ai (bummed about the 1:9 twist which excludes the 168g LRX)
-Browning X Bolt 280ai (nice 1:8 twist, but most are close to 7lbs)
-Kimber something in 280ai (all are 1:9 twist)
-Tikka build in 6.8 western (maybe over budget and brass availability is an issue, maybe 7saum instead?)
-weatherby mark v live wild 280ai (1:9 twist, dang!)
Seems like nothing quite fits the bill but y’all are smarter than me! What am I missing?

Also, I hand load so that opens some doors.

Thanks in advance!!

 

[Timjohnson11]

Agree with your thinking here but at that weight, I’d consider stepping down slightly more. A 6.5 PRC or 6CM sound ideal for what you want. I’m not sure what you mean when you say “minimal power for the job”. Both are great elk cartridges (with proper bullet selection as with any cartridge). I’ve killed a pile of elk with the 6.5 PRC and am building a 6CM now as my next “elk rifle”. I’m in Utah and long range is more the norm given our terrain.

A 6 pound 6CM is easily achieved via Tikka. Buy a 1:8 twist 243 T3X Superlite, sell the barrel on here for $175, use those funds to put towards a 20-22” 6CM prefit. Lastly, buy the vertical grip for the Tikka factory stock. Done!

There are a pile of posts on rockslide basically asking and addressing the same question you present here. May be worth searching around the site for more feedback.

I’d avoid the Weatherby Live Wild.

 

[wind gypsy]

1:9 twist will stabilize lots of .284 bullets fine. If you’re wanting to use a 168 LRX, your concerns with 6.5 PRC are unfounded if you use lead bullets. The right lead 6.5 bullet will kill at least as well as a mono 7mm but likely better.

More on the 168 LRX - a CEB lazer 145 will work with a 9 twist, move a lot faster, have a higher BC, and less recoil. Same same for McGuire ballistics.

 

[sndmn11]

Use that money to buy a lifetime scope for that rifle and then go hunt. I think the glaring equipment upgrade is your current scope, and I am confident that you will be better served by a few choice scopes.

Bell and Carlson also makes an American stock and bottom metal, but if your current rifle shoots well, it is ideal in the current cartridge for what you describe.

Scope and ammo, if you are hell bent in a new rifle, get a rimfire and the same upgraded scope.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

here's a good thought process to work through:
- what is the furthest range you're able to commit the time and $ to become proficient at?
- what is the minimum velocity for reliable upset of the bullets you're interested in using?
- what muzzle velocity is needed to achieve the minimum velocity at your maximum range with the given bullets?
- of those bullets, which one will produce the least recoil while satisfying any caliber minimums for the states you plan to hunt?
- with the bullet decided, what cartridge lets you launch that bullet at the required velocity?
- what factory rifles are available in appropriately twisted barrels for the cartridge you've identified?
-which one has the best reputation for safety and function?
-which one has the best scope mounting options?
- which scopes can actually perform the functions of an aiming device with high reliability?


or, you can skip to the end, get a tikka in 6.5 creed or 243 8 twist, top it with a SWFA, Nightforce, or Maven RS1.2, and go practice a bunch.

 

[PorterM]

All great thoughts! Thank you all!
-I would like to (but don’t have to) stick with a copper solid. Lead is still legal in Washington. But it seems mono metal is a good way to go for elk for penetration and will ruin less meat on a deer when using a more powerful round than the 6.5cm. I am keen on the terminal ascent as a middle ground… Like @wind gypsy said, if I go 6.5prc, I probably have to go to a bonded lead bullet which is legal for now.
- @ResearchinStuff I am happy to commit the time and money to become confident with this rifle up to 500 yards but doubt I will shoot past 400 when all the real life factors come into play on game.
-I don’t want to hit an animal with a bullet at under 2000fps, regardless of copper or lead. 280ai, 6.8 western, can do this, 6.5cm cannot and 6cm and 243 is definitely out of the question for elk for me personally, especially at ranges of 300 or 400 yards.
- @Timjohnson11 by “minimal power for the job” I mean I know a 6.5cm can kill and elk but I would prefer to shoot something with (slightly) more power and velocity to make up for small mistakes in wind call, range, etc. A 6cm will kill an elk but I would feel better with a 300rum in the same situation. Obviously I don’t want the weight and recoil etc etc of something like that but you get what I mean.

Why is everyone recommending 6cm and 243 for elk?? Am I missing something? That seems wildly underpowered when I’m capable of shooting rifles with more recoil accurately… Again, y’all know more than me which is why I ask!

 

[ResearchinStuff]

if you're fully commited to shooting lead free options, then max muzzle velocity is an important consideration. personally, i don't like shooting animals with a mono <3,000 fps, which functionally means I don't hunt with them any more.

These threads are worth studying, and have dead grizzly bear pictures posted in the past couple of weeks:

https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/223-for-bear-deer-elk-and-moose.130488/https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/6-5-creedmoor-260-for-deer-elk-and-whatever-else.244973/

 

[Marshfly]

All great thoughts! Thank you all!
-I would like to (but don’t have to) stick with a copper solid. Lead is still legal in Washington. But it seems mono metal is a good way to go for elk for penetration and will ruin less meat on a deer when using a more powerful round than the 6.5cm. I am keen on the terminal ascent as a middle ground… Like @wind gypsy said, if I go 6.5prc, I probably have to go to a bonded lead bullet which is legal for now.
- @ResearchinStuff I am happy to commit the time and money to become confident with this rifle up to 500 yards but doubt I will shoot past 400 when all the real life factors come into play on game.
-I don’t want to hit an animal with a bullet at under 2000fps, regardless of copper or lead. 280ai, 6.8 western, can do this, 6.5cm cannot and 6cm and 243 is definitely out of the question for elk for me personally, especially at ranges of 300 or 400 yards.
- @Timjohnson11 by “minimal power for the job” I mean I know a 6.5cm can kill and elk but I would prefer to shoot something with (slightly) more power and velocity to make up for small mistakes in wind call, range, etc. A 6cm will kill an elk but I would feel better with a 300rum in the same situation. Obviously I don’t want the weight and recoil etc etc of something like that but you get what I mean.

Why is everyone recommending 6cm and 243 for elk?? Am I missing something? That seems wildly underpowered when I’m capable of shooting rifles with more recoil accurately… Again, y’all know more than me which is why I ask!

If you are as you say, "a long time lurker" you should know the answers to all of these questions.

In short, copper sucks. Shoot animals in the lungs, not the shoulders to save meat. Wound channels are determined by bullet type and impact velocity. Caliber has little effect on the size of the wound channel. People shoot lighter recoiling rifles significantly better than higher recoiling rifles. Everyone. Yes, you too.

Edit. Spend some time reading the threads ResearchinStuff linked above.

 

[Nhenry]

Go with a 280 AI. It's about perfect for anything you want to do in the US. Its [almost] ballistic twin, the 7 SAUM, is just as good. 1:9 will do all you need. Use a 150 class mono and you're good to go. Or if you're like me, shoot 120s at 3400fps and kill stuff.

Unlike a lot of the louder opinions on this website, I'm a big fan of monos. They work and I don't chip my teeth on lead anymore. There is a hierarchy of monos though, with CEB and Hammer at the top. Barnes is fine too.

Why is everyone recommending 6cm and 243 for elk?? Am I missing something? That seems wildly underpowered when I’m capable of shooting rifles with more recoil accurately… Again, y’all know more than me which is why I ask!

Because this is Rokslide.

 

[mxgsfmdpx]

Buy a T3X Lite Compact 20" barrel rifle in 6.5CM ($750)
Buy a Rokstock for it ($550)
Buy UM Tikka Rings for it ($130)
Buy a Maven RS1.2 2.5-15x44 SHR MIL ($1,200)
Buy a bunch of Hornady 140 ELDM or 143 ELDX and go shoot it
Thread and suppress when you can

All in and ready to kill anything in North America with a proven and reliable setup for $2,600. You wont need another gun ever, just replace the barrel with a factory Tikka when you shoot it out (3,500ish factory rounds).

 

[PorterM]

I didn’t realize people were so against mono metals! There is so much raving about hammers on this forum. I always thought the penetration and weight retention on monos was nice to have in the case of big boned animals. The near certainty of an exit should be nice for the blood trail too. But if y’all prefer bonded lead then I’m all ears. Lots of good options in bonded lead no doubt.
@ResearchinStuff ive scrolled deep through those threads. They don’t include the lost and wounded animals… But there’s no doubt that those cartridges will kill with the right bullet in the right place!
@Marshfly I know you are absolutely correct. I would probably shoot a 6cm better than a heavier recoiling rifle, but in my mind 280ai and 6.8w are not heavy recoiling rounds by any stretch… So what do you think the perfect cartridge for a light ish backcountry elk rifle is? Capped at 500 yards.

 

[180ls1]

I'd keep my eye on the Brownings, with the X-bolt 2 coming out there have been some slammer deals on the original X-bolt.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Why Match/Target Bullets For Hunting

This is going to be a barrage of questions. It will help to view me as a skeptic relative to the matter at hand. I am going to do some load development for my new 6mm Creed. I live in the southeast where shots are rarely taken at more than 100 yards. But, I fancy that I will take a trip out...

rokslide.com

 

[PorterM]

@Nhenry
This is more the response I was expecting, thank you! Hahahaha, I suppose I should obsess less about the 1:8 vs 1:9 and the tiny bit of bc that might buy me. I suppose any light 280ai shooting lead or lighter monos will do just fine. I just worry of wind drift as the bc’s creep down in the lighter monos but I can stick to lead and call it a day!

 

[Marshfly]

I didn’t realize people were so against mono metals! There is so much raving about hammers on this forum. I always thought the penetration and weight retention on monos was nice to have in the case of big boned animals. The near certainty of an exit should be nice for the blood trail too. But if y’all prefer bonded lead then I’m all ears. Lots of good options in bonded lead no doubt.
@ResearchinStuff ive scrolled deep through those threads. They don’t include the lost and wounded animals… But there’s no doubt that those cartridges will kill with the right bullet in the right place!
@Marshfly I know you are absolutely correct. I would probably shoot a 6cm better than a heavier recoiling rifle, but in my mind 280ai and 6.8w are not heavy recoiling rounds by any stretch… So what do you think the perfect cartridge for a light ish backcountry elk rifle is? Capped at 500 yards.

My personal rifle is an older Remington 700 in 270 Win. Cut to 17.5" with a Peak 44 Stock. Bare rifle is right at your 6#. With the Trijicon Tenmile and Scythe Suppressor it's right at 8#.

My son shoots a Tikka T3x 6.5CM cut to 18". Either will kill everything in North America and certainly anything in Montana.

I used to shoot Barnes TTSX out of the 270. Totally unimpressed with them. They open if you hit something close but the wound is still only the size of your finger. The ELDM and Berger Hybrid we shoot now are worlds more effective.

 

[Timjohnson11]

All great thoughts! Thank you all!
-I would like to (but don’t have to) stick with a copper solid. Lead is still legal in Washington. But it seems mono metal is a good way to go for elk for penetration and will ruin less meat on a deer when using a more powerful round than the 6.5cm. I am keen on the terminal ascent as a middle ground… Like @wind gypsy said, if I go 6.5prc, I probably have to go to a bonded lead bullet which is legal for now.
- @ResearchinStuff I am happy to commit the time and money to become confident with this rifle up to 500 yards but doubt I will shoot past 400 when all the real life factors come into play on game.
-I don’t want to hit an animal with a bullet at under 2000fps, regardless of copper or lead. 280ai, 6.8 western, can do this, 6.5cm cannot and 6cm and 243 is definitely out of the question for elk for me personally, especially at ranges of 300 or 400 yards.
- @Timjohnson11 by “minimal power for the job” I mean I know a 6.5cm can kill and elk but I would prefer to shoot something with (slightly) more power and velocity to make up for small mistakes in wind call, range, etc. A 6cm will kill an elk but I would feel better with a 300rum in the same situation. Obviously I don’t want the weight and recoil etc etc of something like that but you get what I mean.

Why is everyone recommending 6cm and 243 for elk?? Am I missing something? That seems wildly underpowered when I’m capable of shooting rifles with more recoil accurately… Again, y’all know more than me which is why I ask!

Because they are wildly capable, easier to shot (for most of us) and practice with, and with today's bullet technology, kill darn near as well as larger cartridges . This doesn't apply to everyone. Some of my best freinds and the best shots I know still shot larger calibers such as the 7PRCs of the world. I think the 6.8 western and 280 AI you mentioned would also be great options. It's hard to go wrong here. My advice would be to ignore the folks like me and do what you want. It's your gun after all!

 

[Macintosh]

Well, it aint just rokslide. Even on hunt talk forum 9 out of 10 dentists use and recommend 7mm-08, which is close enough to a 6.5cm as to not bother splitting hairs in most cases.

I’ll be a little contrarian based on my limited experience. Read the linked post about smaller calibers. I think its rationally undeniable that a 6.5 or 6mm cartridge throwing a frangible lead bullet like a tmk or a eldm is PLENTY for elk or moose or really anything in NA at ranges well beyond where the OP says he wants to shoot. But, monos dont “suck”, they kill reliably (so far extremely reliably for me over a dozen+ kills on a variety of game), if not quite as quickly as a frangible lead bullet. I’m totally on board with the bullet wisdom, but given the ranges I shoot similar to the OP in this post, still see zero reason to change the regular old copper monos Ive been using (ttsx mostly). Shooting LRX factory loaded bullets even a 6.5cm at 1500’ elevation is above 2000fps past 400 yards, and above 2200 past 350, and Im betting you could improve on that with handloads. A regular 270 or 6.5prc would be about the same with copper options, and will get you a little more theoretical effective range by virtue of starting out 250ish fps faster, but with more recoil. A 7mm08 handloaded might add a bit to addl velocity above the 6.5cm and have some other bullet options too(??). A 280ai might be even better, but plug the numbers into a calculator and see for yourself—in copper you dont need the bullet mass, you just need the retained velocity, and at the moderate ranges in this case I havent noticed enough of a difference in my wind calls to quibble over that.

This places me in the “invest in a scope before a new rifle” camp as well.

 

[Formidilosus]

I didn’t realize people were so against mono metals!

People aren’t against monos here, monos just aren’t the miracle bullet that media and writers have convinced you they are.

There is so much raving about hammers on this forum. I always thought the penetration and weight retention on monos was nice to have in the case of big boned animals.

What big bones? The scapula is as thin as standard cardboard in an elk. Stop believing they are some mythical creature- they are no harder to kill in reality than a deer.

The near certainty of an exit should be nice for the blood trail too.

It’s not a near certainty at all with monos. More often do you get exits? Usually yes, but not dramatically different.

But if y’all prefer bonded lead then I’m all ears. Lots of good options in bonded lead no doubt.

While bonded bullets are better than monos at creating wound channels they still don’t compare to the bullets people are talking about.

@ResearchinStuff ive scrolled deep through those threads. They don’t include the lost and wounded animals…

You need to read those threads, not crook through them. If you did then you would learn how ridiculous your “they don’t include the last and wounded animals” statement is.

But there’s no doubt that those cartridges will kill with the right bullet in the right place!
@Marshfly I know you are absolutely correct. I would probably shoot a 6cm better than a heavier recoiling rifle, but in my mind 280ai and 6.8w are not heavy recoiling rounds by any stretch…

They very much are heavy recoiling cartridges relative to what has been suggested.

 

[Grassymike]

Check out 7mm-08.

 

[ResearchinStuff]

2 deer. 1 with a 180 ttsx from a 300 win mag, 1 with a 77 tmk with a 223. This is what drives my thinking.