Revolver or Semi Auto for Grizz Protection

[Dustin the wind]

Quick question from reading these threads for years. Generally we have very little data on bear defense with pistols during active charges. Less than 250 for sure. We have a ton (1000s) of cases where cops have shot people higher than a kite trying to eat their face off and the offender feels zero pain and must be stopped with a CNS incapacitation. How do these two situations realistically differ other than a need for a tougher bullet due to the bears density?

The biggest differences I can think of...tweekers are usually going nuts with a crowd of people around them in the city. Bears are totally silent in dark woods charging at 40mph with no warning.

 

[skierhs]

Quick question from reading these threads for years. Generally we have very little data on bear defense with pistols during active charges. Less than 250 for sure. We have a ton (1000s) of cases where cops have shot people higher than a kite trying to eat their face off and the offender feels zero pain and must be stopped with a CNS incapacitation. How do these two situations realistically differ other than a need for a tougher bullet due to the bears density?

Don’t forget that a human has thin skin compared to the fat, hair, and muscle of a bear. With a human you want to dump all your energy right away. If you so that with a bear you won’t get past the fat. That’s why hard cast is the way to go regardless of the pistol caliber and to stay away from hollow points.

 

[eamyrick]

Don’t forget that a human has thin skin compared to the fat, hair, and muscle of a bear. With a human you want to dump all your energy right away. If you so that with a bear you won’t get past the fat. That’s why hard cast is the way to go regardless of the pistol caliber and to stay away from hollow points.

Right which is why I referenced tweekers. Dumping energy is for wide wound cavities making folks bleed to death or lose oxygen which doesn’t really apply when someone is trying to run you through with a sharpened copper pipe at 20 feet. The point I was getting after is that the two situations are more similar than different.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

anybody ever seen a coastal grizz bang flop from a rifle round?

Discounting cns hits

 

[Formidilosus]

We have a ton (1000s) of cases where cops have shot people higher than a kite trying to eat their face off and the offender feels zero pain and must be stopped with a CNS incapacitation. How do these two situations realistically differ other than a need for a tougher bullet due to the bears density?

They don’t.

The whole thing is constant proof that people have no idea how bullets kill and are still stuck in “daddy said so” nonsense. They equate what happens behind the gun to what must happen in front of the gun.

Below 2,000+/- FPS bullets poke holes. Only what the bullet physically touches is damaged- there is little to no secondary wounding that occurs. “Ft-lbs” energy is one of the greatest hoaxes ever brought to gundom. Shoot a thousand bears with hardcast bullets from 9mm to 44 mag and video it. Not only could you not tell which was which from the amount of tissue destroyed, but you couldn’t from the bears reaction either.


458 Win Mags can not physiologically stop a bear without a CNS hit, but a stupid pistol can....

 

[bsnedeker]

They don’t.

The whole thing is constant proof that people have no idea how bullets kill and are still stuck in “daddy said so” nonsense. They equate what happens behind the gun to what must happen in front of the gun.

Below 2,000+/- FPS bullets poke holes. Only what the bullet physically touches is damaged- there is little to no secondary wounding that occurs. “Ft-lbs” energy is one of the greatest hoaxes ever brought to gundom. Shoot a thousand bears with hardcast bullets from 9mm to 44 mag and video it. Not only could you not tell which was which from the amount of tissue destroyed, but you couldn’t from the bears reaction either.


458 Win Mags can not physiologically stop a bear without a CNS hit, but a stupid pistol can....

This has always been my philosophy. I pack a 9mm with hardcast bullets because of the capacity in the magazine. My theory is that if I need to use my gun to stop a charging bear the only chance I have is hitting the central nervous system so I want a LOT of rounds and I just hope I can dump as many rounds into that sucker as possible before he gets to me and hope for a CNS hit.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

Is the Brachial plexus generally included in the family of CNS when discussing shot location?

 

[BRobertson]

There’s a lot of mis-information and ignorance around on handguns effectiveness on game. When I see people make comments about how poorly the truly useful
larger caliber handguns perform, I chalk it up to their lack of experience .
There is a lot of difference between a round nose cast and a cast with a large
meplat.
A. 44 caliber , large meplat bullet will leave a minimum. .75 “ cavity completely through even a large moose or bear. There is a lot of bruising around the wound which Indicates even more damage.

I have never counted on handgun bullets to expand. I want complete penetration
in large game, from any angle.
Take away should be that there are differences between bullet designs for handguns.
I am not suggesting that a handgun is for everyone, just that it is a viable
hunting and protection choice for folks that are willing to gain proficiency
and make good choices on ammo!
I have seen quite a few large bears and moose killed with rifles, and have killed several moose and several “large” grizzlies with a handgun. All bears are individuals.
Bob

 

[AK Troutbum]

They don’t.

The whole thing is constant proof that people have no idea how bullets kill and are still stuck in “daddy said so” nonsense. They equate what happens behind the gun to what must happen in front of the gun.

Below 2,000+/- FPS bullets poke holes. Only what the bullet physically touches is damaged- there is little to no secondary wounding that occurs. “Ft-lbs” energy is one of the greatest hoaxes ever brought to gundom. Shoot a thousand bears with hardcast bullets from 9mm to 44 mag and video it. Not only could you not tell which was which from the amount of tissue destroyed, but you couldn’t from the bears reaction either.


458 Win Mags can not physiologically stop a bear without a CNS hit, but a stupid pistol can....

Okay, I guess I’ll have to very strongly disagree with the last part of this. I don’t know how many bears you’ve killed, and I personally don’t have a whole lot of experience with killing brown/grizzly bears, but I have killed a handful, only one with a handgun, and that one in particular made me a believer in ft. lbs. of energy. It wasn’t a huge bear and it wasn’t charging at mach speed, but it was an adult boar brown bear, that was just initiating a charge. I didn’t put a CNS shot on him like I had intended to do but instead, I hit him in the shoulder/neck area as he faced me with his head down. I was shooting a 2 3/4” barreled S&W .500, using 440gr. hard cast (Buffalo Bore), ammo. Ballistics on box state 1625 fps with 2579 ft. lbs. energy. although out of the short barrel these ballistics are a bit exaggerated. I shot the bear at approximately 10 yards, maybe a little less, and upon impact, the bear was knocked back several feet and down onto his hunches, like into a seated position. From there the bear struggled to turn around and stand up, which he was unable to do. That initial shot entered his neck/shoulder area, traveled the length of his body and exited just left of his tail bone/hip area, and appeared to have severed one of his major arteries (femoral maybe, IDK), as he had blood streaming/pumping down the back side of his left leg. That one shot did not kill him instantly, but it absolutely put him out of commission, and judging from his initial reaction to that first shot, ft. lbs. of energy played a huge factor into disabling that bear. There’s no way anybody can convince me that ft. lbs. of energy is a “great hoax”. Maybe you’ve had different experiences with killing brown bears, if so, I’d love to hear them. I’m in no way claiming to be an expert regarding this, as I can only speak from what I’ve seen and experienced.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[brsnow]

I have always understood that when hunting bears, they are quick to expire and penetration is not difficult, then for self defense they are iron machines. Is the truth in the middle?

 

[Formidilosus]

AK,


You could get shot point blank with that pistol wearing appropriate soft armor and not get knocked over. That’s 100% of kinetic energy being absorbed by a 200’ish pound person... That bullet didn’t knock the bear back. That’s not how it works.

 

[Ndbowhunter]

I have always understood that when hunting bears, they are quick to expire and penetration is not difficult, then for self defense they are iron machines. Is the truth in the middle?

Define quick to expire

aktroutbums bear story is an example of how effective separating the brachial plexus bundle of nerves is when trying to dispatch dangerous game.

 

[MattB]

I have always understood that when hunting bears, they are quick to expire and penetration is not difficult, then for self defense they are iron machines. Is the truth in the middle?

Black or brown bears? Very different animals. I personally think a lot of guys don't understand that.

I've never shot a brown bear, but have killed a number of black bears with a bow. It has always amazed me at how distracting an arrow was to a bear compared to a deer. Deer will react to being hit, but bears generally have lost it when shot. Full flail mode.

I am sure there are bears that walk through multiple gun shots, but I also think that there are those who are not "stopped" by a bullet but have their attention totally diverted by being shot.

 

[bsnedeker]

AK,


You could get shot point blank with that pistol wearing appropriate soft armor and not get knocked over. That’s 100% of kinetic energy being absorbed by a 200’ish pound person... That bullet didn’t knock the bear back. That’s not how it works.

This is 100% true. I have no doubt that it may have APPEARED that the bear was knocked back by the round, but there is no way that is actually what happened. If that were the case my 4000+ ft. lbs. 300 WM would be throwing whitetail does across the mountain when I shoot them. Now, I'm also sure the hydrostatic shock that bear felt when you put that round through him was a huge factor as well which means that you may not have had the same result with say a 9mm. Either way, you've given me something to think about for sure!

 

[BRobertson]

Ok, you guys that are pressing the point that the bear was not knocked down are
taking the phrase too literally , perhaps to prove a point.
If you are punched in the nose by a professional boxer, you would be knocked
on your ass and when you woke up you wouldn’t argue the fact( even on the internet) that you were knocked on your ass! Your body reacted to the punch
and the trauma by collapsing and internet experts would not be able to convince
you otherwise!
That is what happens when an animal reacts to a hit.
It isn’t so much a physics thing , it is more a living, biological reaction.That bears
body told him he had been mortally wounded and reacted accordingly.
If you took that same dead bear and posed it and shot it in the identical way,
the bear carcass would hardly move.

Bob

 

[LookinforDirt]

I think you answered your question when you said you don’t carry one in the chamber using a semi auto. Use the revolver. If that were not the case I’d say use which ever one you practice with the most and are most proficient using. That’s most important. A hot .40 and a hot 10mm is no comparison. The 10mm wins hands down. Just as a 10mm does not contest hot rounds out of a .41 or .44 magnum.

 

[brsnow]

Ok, you guys that are pressing the point that the bear was not knocked down are
taking the phrase too literally , perhaps to prove a point.
If you are punched in the nose by a heavy weight boxer, you would be knocked
on your ass and when you woke up you wouldn’t argue the fact( even on the internet) that you were knocked on your ass! Your body reacted to the punch
and the trauma by collapsing and internet experts would not be able to convince
you otherwise!
That is what happens when an animal reacts to a hit.
It isn’t so much a physics thing , it is more a living, biological reaction.That bears
body told him he had been mortally wounded and reacted accordingly.
If you took that same dead bear and posed it and shot it in the identical way,
the bear carcass would hardly move.

Bob

A quality lightweight boxer will provide the same effect.

 

[BRobertson]

I fixed it!!

 

[bsnedeker]

Ok, you guys that are pressing the point that the bear was not knocked down are
taking the phrase too literally , perhaps to prove a point.
If you are punched in the nose by a professional boxer, you would be knocked
on your ass and when you woke up you wouldn’t argue the fact( even on the internet) that you were knocked on your ass! Your body reacted to the punch
and the trauma by collapsing and internet experts would not be able to convince
you otherwise!
That is what happens when an animal reacts to a hit.
It isn’t so much a physics thing , it is more a living, biological reaction.That bears
body told him he had been mortally wounded and reacted accordingly.
If you took that same dead bear and posed it and shot it in the identical way,
the bear carcass would hardly move.

Bob

I take things the way they are written, so yes, I was taking him literally because this is literally what he said: the bear was knocked back several feet and down onto his hunches.

If he meant something other than what he wrote I guess my psychic abilities are not what they used to be.

 

[AK Troutbum]

Ha, ha, yeah I probably could have written that a little different in order to have gotten my point across. I believe that greater ft. lbs. of energy translates into greater effectiveness/response. The main thing that I was trying to convey with that story is that I don't think a CNS hit is necessarily required for derailing a charge, if you have an ample amount of ft. lbs. of energy. I would venture to guess, again this is only a guess as I am in no way an expert on the matter, that had I been using the same type of bullet but appropriately sized for say a 10mm (200 gr. hard cast at 1200 fps and 700 ft. lbs. energy), the affects would have been much less dramatic. Had my initial shot not have been as effective, I don't believe I would have had much of a chance for a follow up shot, as the bear was very close and could have covered the distance in a split second. But, who knows, maybe it was just that bear, and I could have shot him with a .22 and gotten the same response.