Wolf pack in CO

[BuzzH]

In another decade, I'll probably be able to shoot 4 elk a year in Wyoming...we cant control them now with 3 tags per hunter.

 

[Bigjay73]

All of this is a moot point. Wolves are here, and they're going to keep growing in numbers. Let's accept that fact and adjust our hunting strategies accordingly. Let's also hope this bill fails, and nature can just take its course.

 

[Billy Goat]

Not in WY, MT, and ID...they can legally shoot all the wolves they want, no reason to "3S" anything...and never has been a reason to in regard to personal safety or protecting livestock.

Old wives tales die hard...

I know USDA/APHIS was not allowed to use lethal means anymore in northern Co. Can you tell me why that was then?

They can still trap, however that area is now off limits for lethal devices such as the m44's.

In areas with a known population of wolves, yes many times they are allowed to shoot when livestock is in danger. In other areas not so much.

 

[BuzzH]

What I want to know is why wolves target deer, elk , bears and whatever when all the cattle are wandering around in the same habitat.
I seen a wolf this year in Montana while archery hunting elk. There were angus cattle bumbling around in the same vicinity all day everyday.
You would think that a single moo cow would be easy pickings for a wolf/wolves.

Wolves that are found to be preying on livestock get themselves dead in short order. Another misconception is that every coyote, every wolf, every lion, every bear is "bad" and kill livestock with one angry look.

Considering the amount of livestock grazing on federal lands with all those predators on the landscape, very little livestock is killed. In fact, if you look at the APHIS annual reporting on livestock predation, you'll find fluffy the domestic dog, kill a lot more than wolves...by a long shot.

 

[BuzzH]

I know USDA/APHIS was not allowed to use lethal means anymore in northern Co. Can you tell me why that was then?

They can still trap, however that area is now off limits for lethal devices such as the m44's.

In areas with a known population of wolves, yes many times they are allowed to shoot when livestock is in danger. In other areas not so much.

There was a voluntary halt on m-44s in 2017 by the USDA in Colorado due to a pending lawsuit and until a new EA was completed.

The new EA was completed and as far as I know, m-44's are now legal to use again, even in Colorado, although I do recall reading that maybe limited to private land use in Colorado.

Fire up your google machine...probably find out for yourself.

 

[5MilesBack]

There's proof that we already have them here in CO, so perhaps they should pull that ballot initiative since they don't need to "reintroduce" them here.

 

[Billy Goat]

There was a voluntary halt on m-44s in 2017 by the USDA in Colorado due to a pending lawsuit and until a new EA was completed.

The new EA was completed and as far as I know, m-44's are now legal to use again, even in Colorado, although I do recall reading that maybe limited to private land use in Colorado.

I'm also aware of how many livestock are killed by pets versus predators. Many years I have lost more livestock to domestic dogs, but it depends on the situation. I'd be very surprised if more livestock is lost in Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and Idaho to domestic animals but I could be wrong.

Fire up your google machine...probably find out for yourself.

I'm familiar with the situation in Colorado with aphis and the m44 use. It was this spring that they closed their use in the north western area of Colorado. I'm pretty certain that they have never been allowed to use them on public lands, only private and with heavy restrictions. I'm not certain who the idiot was who planted one on public ground. It's definitely not a good situation.

Lots of years I have lost more livestock to domestic dogs than predators. But I doubt that that's common in Colorado, Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming. But I haven't looked up those numbers.


You are also correct on the fact that not every predator is bad, but they are opportunistic. However we try to target problem animals.

 

[Okhotnik]

Right...name me one State that was allowing hunters to kill multiple elk per year in 1994, you know, prior to wolves being an "issue".

Montana is going to allow 3 per year starting this coming year, Wyoming you can already kill 3, Idaho is 2, and Colorado is 2 now and was 3 for a while.

Funny how all the States with wolves, allow hunters to take multiple elk per season...strange, since I thought the wolves ate them all.

I'll take a stroll here in the next couple weeks to see if I cant fill my 3rd elk tag for the year in Wyoming...that is if the wolves haven't beat me to it.

that’s a lie Buzz

In WA and OR, after wolf introduction, greatly reduced their elk tags

I guess all the money you received from environmental groups for your pro wolf studies impairs your logic

 

[Marble]

Is that something you’re okay with if it’s truly happening?

would you feel differently if a farmer was doing that with deer or elk in crops?

People have off switches and we have other means to persuade behavior. Laws etc. The wolf is a wild foreign animal being placed into an ecosystem it doesnt belong in. It's been gone so long that an inbalance ie created when they get placed anywhere.

If you want to bring the wolf back. Where does it stop? Should we start bringing back some dinosaurs?

 

[BuzzH]

that’s a lie Buzz

In WA and OR, after wolf introduction, greatly reduced their elk tags

I guess all the money you received from environmental groups for your pro wolf studies impairs your logic

Just name the States that were allowing hunters to kill multiple elk prior to 1994...and no its not a lie, its a fact.

 

[BuzzH]

People have off switches and we have other means to persuade behavior. Laws etc. The wolf is a wild foreign animal being placed into an ecosystem it doesnt belong in. It's been gone so long that an inbalance ie created when they get placed anywhere.

If you want to bring the wolf back. Where does it stop? Should we start bringing back some dinosaurs?

Should we also not transplant bighorn sheep? Elk to the Midwest and East coast? Mountain goats?

I don't hear many sheep hunters complaining about transplanting sheep all over the place...they've been gone for a long time from a lot of their former ranges.

Where does it stop? Should be start bringing back some dinosaurs instead of bighorn sheep?

 

[Ross]

Thankfully some trappers are putting a hurting on these vermin in north Idaho seeing lots of dead wolves

 

[BuzzH]

Thankfully some trappers are putting a hurting on these vermin in north Idaho seeing lots of dead wolves

Hopefully they get some good prices on the fur.

 

[Outlaw99]

Thankfully some trappers are putting a hurting on these vermin in north Idaho seeing lots of dead wolves

Trapping, is going to be the only way to maintain any sort of “control” or management when it comes to wolves. Guys going in, setting on sign, who are experienced knowledgeable trappers, and taking out while family units. Opportunistic shooting, and calling is gonna kill wolves, but not the kind of numbers it’s going to take to effectively keep the population in check.

This is gonna be the problem in Colorado, you can’t catch wolves in cages, and unless you’re a Gman, you ain’t layin steel in that State.

Anyone for or against wolves ought to do themselves a favor and read the biography of Frank Glaser; in his time, the United States government had a handle on predator management and did things right. Funny thing is, folks can still trap wolves up there without their hands being tied and guess what, there’s still a few of them cute furry little fellers up there running around for those who love em so much. Management hasn’t made them extinct!

If anyone is interested, the book about Frank is called ”Alaska Wolfman”

 

[davescarp]

If it were me, I wouldn't expedite the inevitable w/ reintroduction. not sure what the point of reintroduction is when recolonization is going to happen eventually. I have no dog in this as I live in the east, but as a biologist IMO it's better to take the slow and steady approach for both wolves, elk/deer, ranchers etc.

 

[Ralphie]

There are a couple issues with aphis data. With regard to dogs killing more livestock than wolves, in the country yes, but if you start to look at states that actually have wolves, those numbers get a lot more fuzzy. As in wolves in Wy and Mt. kill more cattle than do dogs.

Predation in general is not the biggest loss to the livestock industry, it’s actually pretty low. But it is also not spread evenly across the industry. Likewise predation by grizzly bears and wolves is tiny across the industry, but if you are the one suffering from it it can be a major loss.

Damage from dogs is also easier to stop than from wolves.

Every wolf also does not kill livestock. But not every wolf has the opportunity. Most, if not all, packs that are around livestock kill livestock.

It has not always been the case that Wyoming ranchers could realistically shoot wolves for livestock protection. There was a time period when wolves could only be shot by a rancher, if caught in the act of attacking livestock. Not around livestock, not near them, actually attacking. And that is very hard to do.

It will be interesting to see how Colorado moose do around wolves.

Given how Colorado has been voting as a state I’m thinking more wolves are on the way shortly.

 

[Dos Perros]

Just name the States that were allowing hunters to kill multiple elk prior to 1994...and no its not a lie, its a fact.

Are you implying wolves are responsible for the general trend of growing elk herds?

 

[street]

If it were me, I wouldn't expedite the inevitable w/ reintroduction. not sure what the point of reintroduction is when recolonization is going to happen eventually. I have no dog in this as I live in the east, but as a biologist IMO it's better to take the slow and steady approach for both wolves, elk/deer, ranchers etc.

Right, anyone with any basic knowledge of Game Theory knows you would never want to drastically change the population of either predators or prey.

 

[Okhotnik]

Wolves that are found to be preying on livestock get themselves dead in short order. Another misconception is that every coyote, every wolf, every lion, every bear is "bad" and kill livestock with one angry look.

Considering the amount of livestock grazing on federal lands with all those predators on the landscape, very little livestock is killed. In fact, if you look at the APHIS annual reporting on livestock predation, you'll find fluffy the domestic dog, kill a lot more than wolves...by a long shot.

that's another lie from Buzzh.

In WA and ORn or WI, MI, MN it takes repeated and well documented attacks before authorities react to wolves TO REMOVE or relocate them. If a rancher shoots a wolf defending his livestock he will undergo months of investigation USFWS.

 

[Okhotnik]

Trapping, is going to be the only way to maintain any sort of “control” or management when it comes to wolves. Guys going in, setting on sign, who are experienced knowledgeable trappers, and taking out while family units. Opportunistic shooting, and calling is gonna kill wolves, but not the kind of numbers it’s going to take to effectively keep the population in check.

This is gonna be the problem in Colorado, you can’t catch wolves in cages, and unless you’re a Gman, you ain’t layin steel in that State.

Anyone for or against wolves ought to do themselves a favor and read the biography of Frank Glaser; in his time, the United States government had a handle on predator management and did things right. Funny thing is, folks can still trap wolves up there without their hands being tied and guess what, there’s still a few of them cute furry little fellers up there running around for those who love em so much. Management hasn’t made them extinct!

If anyone is interested, the book about Frank is called ”Alaska Wolfman”

Same in WA, OR no trapping allowed

BUZZH knows this but of course will continue to spread disinformation as he receives funds from pro wolf groups, most of whom are anti hunting and would like to see all hunting outlawed.