Wyoming Corner Crossing Jury Trial Live Stream

[Gutshot007]

And not Judge Judy. ......she so mean !

 

[Gutshot007]

I think outside the courtroom this case will give people more confidence to cross at corners. Whether it's "officially " legal or not. I bet you will see more of it . I can hear it now the old "what are they gonna take us all to court" mentality or "those guys from Missouri won their court case. Dam thats a big elk over there!"

 

[Gutshot007]

One other thing I do like the name "THE MISSOURI 4" is does have a nice ring to it. Like some bankrobbers from the 20's with machine guns vs some guys that went over 2 stakes with a chain and a ladder. Man those guys are craaaazzzzzy!

 

[Jimss]

In Colo, it's simple for everyone because it's written in stone that you will get a ticket for corner crossing. I'm pretty sure both game wardens and sheriff's can issue citations for corner cross hunters in Colorado. So what is it in Wyo....no one really knows?

As it stands in Wyo, game wardens still won't be issuing tickets and there is nothing in the hunting regulations stating that corner crossing is legal or not legal. Game wardens will not hand out citations unless a hunter is trespassing. It will still be up to each county whether their sheriff's issue citations. It's a toss of a coin whether Wyo hunters will be issued a citation on any given day or chunk of property. Is corner crossing legal or not? Is it worth another heated court battle or 2 or 3 before something is written in stone?

It works both ways.... if you are a landowner legalizing corner hopping would be a royal headache...if you are a hunter it's a matter of permanently freeing up thousands of acres of public land. How about the sheriff and court system in Wyo? Will they be overwhelmed with more of these cases tying up their man hours and court system in the future? Wyoming is blessed (or cursed) with more checkered, public, land-locked land than any other state in the nation. So what's going to happen in 2023 and beyond?

 

[Gutshot007]

I betcha those folks in Wyoming are gonna be pissed when they can't find a ladder in the hardware store come fall.

 

[SWFLhntr]

Glad to hear the hunters were found not guilty.

 

[wapitibob]

In Colo, it's simple for everyone because it's written in stone that you will get a ticket for corner crossing. I'm pretty sure both game wardens and sheriff's can issue citations for corner cross hunters in Colorado. So what is it in Wyo....no one really knows?

If 4 ranches/individuals own a corner, which one gets the ticket??

 

[Fatcamp]

In Colo, it's simple for everyone because it's written in stone that you will get a ticket for corner crossing. I'm pretty sure both game wardens and sheriff's can issue citations for corner cross hunters in Colorado. So what is it in Wyo....no one really knows?

As it stands in Wyo, game wardens still won't be issuing tickets and there is nothing in the hunting regulations stating that corner crossing is legal or not legal. Game wardens will not hand out citations unless a hunter is trespassing. It will still be up to each county whether their sheriff's issue citations. It's a toss of a coin whether Wyo hunters will be issued a citation on any given day or chunk of property. Is corner crossing legal or not? Is it worth another heated court battle or 2 or 3 before something is written in stone?

It works both ways.... if you are a landowner legalizing corner hopping would be a royal headache...if you are a hunter it's a matter of permanently freeing up thousands of acres of public land. How about the sheriff and court system in Wyo? Will they be overwhelmed with more of these cases tying up their man hours and court system in the future? Wyoming is blessed (or cursed) with more checkered, public, land-locked land than any other state in the nation. So what's going to happen in 2023 and beyond?

How exactly is corner hopping a, "royal headache" for landowners? Other than the obvious part where they get to use public land exclusively.

 

[Jimss]

I agree 100% that it's fantastic that the M4 were found not guilty! I understand completely how fantastic it will be to open up literally millions of acres of public land to the public if this ever becomes a reality.

I thought I would just point out that there is still a lot more work to be done.....and there is going to be a lot of crazy stuff going on since there still are a bunch of unanswered questions. Will there be more court cases in Wyo since more hunters will likely consider corner crossing and take the chance of corner crossing in all counties stretching across Wyo? What happens in Wyo counties where the judge/sheriff are less forgiving? There is nothing that is cut and dry...legal or illegal yet!

Obviously there are always a few public hunters that tend to screw things up for everyone else. It's those hunters that I was eluding to in my last post. Obviously landowners in areas that historically had 0 public hunting pressure had virtually little head aches because they were void of public hunters. If corner crossing becomes legalized, large areas may suddenly be inundated with public hunters....and among them are a very few hunters that can potentially cause problems with livestock, 4 wheelers, fencing, trespassing, etc. Anyone that has spent much time around private ranches next to public land know exactly what I'm talking about. It's the few idiots that cause headaches for landowners and give honest hunters a poor name.

With millions of acres of public land opened up to the public that is immediately adjacent to private land there are bound to be a few conflicts. No big deal to the public law abiding hunters but it is a reality to landowners in those areas with livestock, etc. that make their living off the land. Landowners will suddenly have to be a little more vigilant watching borders and there potentially may be more complaints/conflicts reported to sheriff/game wardens? My guess is that sheriff and game wardens across Wyo are going to have a lot longer days this coming year!

 

[BuzzH]

I agree 100% that it's fantastic that the M4 were found not guilty! I understand completely how fantastic it will be to open up literally millions of acres of public land to the public if this ever becomes a reality.

I thought I would just point out that there is still a lot more work to be done.....and there is going to be a lot of crazy stuff going on since there still are a bunch of unanswered questions. Will there be more court cases in Wyo since more hunters will likely consider corner crossing and take the chance of corner crossing in all counties stretching across Wyo? What happens in Wyo counties where the judge/sheriff are less forgiving? There is nothing that is cut and dry...legal or illegal yet!

Obviously there are always a few public hunters that tend to screw things up for everyone else. It's those hunters that I was eluding to in my last post. Obviously landowners in areas that historically had 0 public hunting pressure had virtually little head aches because they were void of public hunters. If corner crossing becomes legalized, large areas may suddenly be inundated with public hunters....and among them are a very few hunters that can potentially cause problems with livestock, 4 wheelers, fencing, trespassing, etc. Anyone that has spent much time around private ranches next to public land know exactly what I'm talking about. It's the few idiots that cause headaches for landowners and give honest hunters a poor name.

With millions of acres of public land opened up to the public that is immediately adjacent to private land there are bound to be a few conflicts. No big deal to the public law abiding hunters but it is a reality to landowners in those areas with livestock, etc. that make their living off the land. Landowners will suddenly have to be a little more vigilant watching borders and there potentially may be more complaints/conflicts reported to sheriff/game wardens? My guess is that sheriff and game wardens across Wyo are going to have a lot longer days this coming year!

Get real...you have done nothing to help with this case Sebastian...but you'll take advantage of others work.

You're like a blister, you show up once the work is done.

Private ownership of land comes with responsibility. Public hunters stepping from one piece of public to another piece of public is of no concern to any private landowner. Absolutely none...your whole argument is nonsense.

 

[Bubblehide]

Get real...you have done nothing to help with this case Sebastian...but you'll take advantage of others work.

You're like a blister, you show up once the work is done.

Private ownership of land comes with responsibility. Public hunters stepping from one piece of public to another piece of public is of no concern to any private landowner. Absolutely none...your whole argument is nonsense.

Lol!

 

[Jimss]

Great to see work was done in the publics favor! Just saying it’s just a start and it’s everything but a done deal. There will be new issues popping up and nothing has been written in stone that makes corner crossing legal or illegal!

 

[Gutshotem]

How exactly is corner hopping a, "royal headache" for landowners? Other than the obvious part where they get to use public land exclusively.

I think any landowner can testify that more people utilizing an area = more problems.
Doesn't matter if your property is in bf Wyoming or Beverley Hills.

 

[sodaksooner]

The FARs are for aircraft. The most closely applicable FAA guidance is for skydiving, AC 105-2D, and only lists restrictions related to jumpers within controlled airspace, namely A, B, C and D. Don't have the lat/long of the alleged incident in front of me to check what kind of airspace it happened in, but it's very unlikely it was within any of those.

Agreed, but only thing I could find regarding "legal" altitude above someone's property. Palmer's issue was in uncontrolled airspace. He was scouting a landing and didn't feel comfortable, and the FAA slapped him because he was too close to a building (although when landing the FAR above supposedly doesn't apply). I just threw this out there as I had heard the other news lately. I know it isn't necessarily germain, but found it interesting.

 

[Squincher]

I think it would a bad idea to focus on the airspace question in this situation because any hard rule that comes about would almost certainly involve a higher altitude than human height. If I was handling this case, I would focus solely on the issue of public access to public land and 43 USC 1061. It seems clear the federal government placed public access above whatever inconvenience corner cutting would cause adjacent landowners. Adjacent landowners, who by the way, weren't forced to buy adjacent to public ground but likely did with the expectation of exclusive use of ground they don't own.

 

[ben h]

They most certainly bought it with the expectation of exclusive use of public land. It is literally written that way verbatum in the Real Estate marketing property listing. Their only "damage" is the possible loss of exclusive use to public lands adjacent to theirs.


Below is the link to the complete listing:

https://chickeringco.com/portfolio-item/elk-mountain/

A question I have for those that think you shouldn't be able to corner hop, if the US decided to sell off the landlocked parcels to a new owner, do you think the new owner would have the rights to keep the other owner from accessing their land that they previously had access to (assuming they'd have to cross the same corner and there was no other access)?

 

[Coveyleader]

I have hunted CO and WY alot, I have yet to run into one rancher that didn't think the BLM behind his property wasn't somehow "His". If I had a dollar for every time some rancher asked me "How did I get in here" I'd fund Buzz's first semester at the local community college so he can stop pretending to be a "Surveyor".

@ JIm, you're all wet on this one.

 

[jdinville3]

They most certainly bought it with the expectation of exclusive use of public land. It is literally written that way verbatum in the Real Estate marketing property listing. Their only "damage" is the possible loss of exclusive use to public lands adjacent to theirs.

View attachment 406946
Below is the link to the complete listing:

https://chickeringco.com/portfolio-item/elk-mountain/

A question I have for those that think you shouldn't be able to corner hop, if the US decided to sell off the landlocked parcels to a new owner, do you think the new owner would have the rights to keep the other owner from accessing their land that they previously had access to (assuming they'd have to cross the same corner and there was no other access)?

That's a great analogy IMO, can two land owners owning land catty corner from each other legally cross or not? The bottom line to me is what the real issue is, it's not the corner crossing at all, really it's private land owners having that chunk of private land exclusively to themselves. Now I don't blame them one bit, but there should be no such thing as illegal to corner cross. You can spin the topic all you want, but there is no way however many years ago it was checkerboarded that the intent was to land lock anything. I'm far from a lawyer, nor do I know that much, but I find it hard to believe there's no easement or access clause written somewhere. Which then makes you think the obvious if there isn't, then it's not illegal to corner cross and a law isn't needed because it makes sense to be able to do so.

 

[Squincher]

That's a great analogy IMO, can two land owners owning land catty corner from each other legally cross or not? The bottom line to me is what the real issue is, it's not the corner crossing at all, really it's private land owners having that chunk of private land exclusively to themselves. Now I don't blame them one bit, but there should be no such thing as illegal to corner cross. You can spin the topic all you want, but there is no way however many years ago it was checkerboarded that the intent was to land lock anything. I'm far from a lawyer, nor do I know that much, but I find it hard to believe there's no easement or access clause written somewhere. Which then makes you think the obvious if there isn't, then it's not illegal to corner cross and a law isn't needed because it makes sense to be able to do so.

As I posted earlier, 43 USC 1061 covers this, and 43 USC 1062 requires the U.S. Attorney to take action upon complaint of a violation.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?path=/prelim@title43/chapter25&edition=prelim

It looks like it should be pretty straight forward to settle the issue.

 

[ben h]

I'm not an attorney, but I don't think it's as simple as enforcing rule 1061 because it includes "or an asserted right thereto by or under claim". What the hell does that mean? Anyone could assert a claim. Without that part of the law it would be pretty staight forward, that you can't erect something prevent access.