Your Groups Are Too Small

[ARK_Ginger]

Thought this was a great discussion about group sizes. Especially chasing a zero. Recommend anyone take a listen.

 

[zrodwyo]

This is why I quit doing load development. I just find pressure and then back off a little. My rifles are still as accurate as ever.

 

[wind gypsy]

Can we make it a fookin sticky here and on the reloading forum? Just so we can send all the people with the half and quarter MOA all day hunting rifles there..

 

[Legend]

Long video but definitely worth listening to. Might have to change my approach!

 

[huntnful]

That was an excellent share. I listened to the whole thing. Great info for sure. I may bump up to the 10 shot group. That seemed like the happy medium to saving components but also getting valuable data.

 

[prm]

So, pick a bullet, pick a powder, pick a suitable seating depth and shoot enough (10-30) to see if at any point it is worse than your accuracy and velocity needs. If it meets your objectives, great, if not switch powder or bullet. Seems we’ve heard that before…

Good video, thanks for sharing.

 

[TxxAgg]

Tagged

 

[BjornF16]

Summary:
1. 10 shot group (minimum) for zero
2. Changing bullet and powder can have significant impact upon accuracy
3. Changing primer and jump have minimal impact upon accuracy
3.5. If changing powder/bullet combo doesn’t get your desired results, change barrel
4. 20 and 30 shot group size are relevant
5. Over 30 shot group size not necessary

Was @Formidilosus one of those podcasters?

Edit: added 3.5

 

[RS_Non-Res]

2.5) If bullet and powder combos don't work, get a new barrel.

 

[TNKnoxville]

Very interesting. As I am an engineer this is awesome data.

Might get $$$ if you have a finicky rifle!!!!!!!

I didn't hear how they pick the loads for their factory rounds?

 

[gabenzeke]

Came to share this podcast. Glad someone else caught it.

Sent from my Pixel 6 Pro using Tapatalk

 

[Formidilosus]

Funny ol’world, isn't it…

 

[wind gypsy]

Very interesting. As I am an engineer this is awesome data.

Might get $$$ if you have a finicky rifle!!!!!!!

I didn't hear how they pick the loads for their factory rounds?

If you have certain expectations and are not willing to lower them, it does get expensive. My experience has been that it is much more expensive in both ammo and especially time to continue throwing different loads at it trying to make it shoot just to end up failing and getting a new barrel anyway.

 

[prm]

Now we just need more info on what level of bench style shooting accuracy (i.e. the rifle) is suitable for hunting. Obviously prone on a bipod/rear bag and shooting long range is a quite different requirement than a hunter shooting field positions to 400ish yards. I’m thinking offhand, kneeling, sitting, leaning against tree, etc. Basically the rifle (load) accuracy contribution to the entire system accuracy. I know I would benefit more from working on my skills than worrying about an additional quarter or half inch of bench group accuracy.

 

[Flyjunky]

Can we make it a fookin sticky here and on the reloading forum? Just so we can send all the people with the half and quarter MOA all day hunting rifles there..

I’ve chuckled to myself so many times when I’ve seen people say that.

I remember Alex Wheeler discussing the fallacy of 1/4” guns on LRO…doing it once compared to day in day out is a HUGE difference.

Good video!

 

[Dobermann]

Tagged

No need to clutter the thread with 'Tagged' - that's what the 'Watch' feature is for at the top right of the thread.

Thanks to the OP for this podcast ... yet another one to add to the growing list!

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Now we just need more info on what level of bench style shooting accuracy (i.e. the rifle) is suitable for hunting. Obviously prone on a bipod/rear bag and shooting long range is a quite different requirement than a hunter shooting field positions to 400ish yards. I’m thinking offhand, kneeling, sitting, leaning against tree, etc. Basically the rifle (load) accuracy contribution to the entire system accuracy. I know I would benefit more from working on my skills than worrying about an additional quarter or half inch of bench group accuracy.

I do think that would be and interesting discussion to be had. I also think people are more or less already having this conversation when you look at something like the Kraft drill and AP Wez calculator.

 

[Formidilosus]

Now we just need more info on what level of bench style shooting accuracy (i.e. the rifle) is suitable for hunting. Obviously prone on a bipod/rear bag and shooting long range is a quite different requirement than a hunter shooting field positions to 400ish yards. I’m thinking offhand, kneeling, sitting, leaning against tree, etc. Basically the rifle (load) accuracy contribution to the entire system accuracy. I know I would benefit more from working on my skills than worrying about an additional quarter or half inch of bench group accuracy.

It’s been done for years. Just like with shot group sizes; people don’t want to listen.

2 MOA. Hit rates do not go up in field environments out to 400’ish yards from 2 MOA to .5 MOA real group size. When your system is mechanically capable of consistently putting ten rounds into 2 MOA, out to 400 yards “precision” is not why you’re going to miss. Out to 600, 1.5 MOA. Past 600y, to about as far as one can shoot, a real 1 MOA gun is not the reason you will miss a game animal. Actually the hit rates from 1.3’ish MOA to .25 MOA are so close at longer ranges in field environments, that almost no one benefits from smaller group sizes.

 

[ToolMann]

BS. I don't trust anyone who says I can't immediately dismiss that inevitable flyer!

 

[prm]

It’s been done for years. Just like with shot group sizes; people don’t want to listen.

2 MOA. Hit rates do not go up in field environments out to 400’ish yards from 2 MOA to .5 MOA real group size. When your system is mechanically capable of consistently putting ten rounds into 2 MOA, out to 400 yards “precision” is not why you’re going to miss. Out to 600, 1.5 MOA. Past 600y, to about as far as one can shoot, a real 1 MOA gun is not the reason you will miss a game animal. Actually the hit rates from 1.3’ish MOA to .25 MOA are so close at longer ranges in field environments, that almost no one benefits from smaller group sizes.

Thank you. That’s exactly what I was looking for.