Your Groups Are Too Small

[Cactus kid]

Bryan Litz did a little math on the subject, should you be intrested

 

[wapitibob]

It’s been done for years. Just like with shot group sizes; people don’t want to listen.

2 MOA. Hit rates do not go up in field environments out to 400’ish yards from 2 MOA to .5 MOA real group size. When your system is mechanically capable of consistently putting ten rounds into 2 MOA, out to 400 yards “precision” is not why you’re going to miss.

Real Group Size being the elephant in the room. Admitting the shooter himself is part of the "system" seems to be a tough one.

Thanks for the link, great eye opening podcast.

 

[ARK_Ginger]

Bryan Litz did a little math on the subject, should you be intrested

While I don’t disagree with Bryan’s analysis, I just wanted to point out those percentages are based off of a 5” target and it is important to read the text/explanation there instead of just glancing at the graph.

 

[Cactus kid]

While I don’t disagree with Bryan’s analysis, I just wanted to point out those percentages are based off of a 5” target and it is important to read the text/explanation there instead of just glancing at the graph.

yes everyone please read the text clarification. A 5" target is a conservative estimation of vital signs on most deer sized game. I know 8" gets thrown around a lot. But I will point out that with a larger target the hit percentages go up even higher for a less precise rifle.

 

[Tmac]

This and Form’s info lines up with much of the data in the PrecisionRifleBlog. Lots of info there if you really want to geek out.

 

[Choupique]

Summary:
1. 10 shot group (minimum) for zero

Man thats a $50 group with some factory loads these days!

 

[Dobermann]

Man thats a $50 group with some factory loads these days!

And possibly the best $50 most hunters can hope to spend, when you consider the alternatives ...

But how many will balk at that small up-front cost, put on a rubbish scope, shoot a 3-shot group, call it good, and then go and miss (or wound) animals?

And still post to the interwebs cherry-picked three shot groups shot from a bench?

 

[HighUintas]

Cool. I am guessing at least one of those guys is a member on this forum.

 

[CCooper]

Shot a 10 round group today- a real eye opener for someone like myself who has always shot 3’s. My sometimes 1 hole rifle turned into a 1.5” rifle. Not claiming the driver doesn’t suck

 

[greaseywater]

Shot a 10 round group today- a real eye opener for someone like myself who has always shot 3’s. My sometimes 1 hole rifle turned into a 1.5” rifle. Not claiming the driver doesn’t suck

Today I shot a 15 rd zero prior to a hunt next week. 1.1". I'm satisfied.

 

[PantherCity]

Today I shot a 15 rd zero prior to a hunt next week. 1.1". I'm satisfied.
View attachment 489499

Toss those 2 flyers and you’re sub moa all day!

I’d be very confident taking that rig on any hunt.

I’ve been shooting 10 shot groups for awhile and figured out a lot of people online aren’t BSing, they are just deluding themselves about what their gun can do. I don’t really care about the best group I can shoot. I care much more about the worst groups I shoot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Reburn]

Shot a 10 round group today- a real eye opener for someone like myself who has always shot 3’s. My sometimes 1 hole rifle turned into a 1.5” rifle. Not claiming the driver doesn’t suck

Just wait until you figure out that most ammo shoots the same. meaning the hornady ammo you though was so good based on 3 round group was actually a 1.2 moa ammo and the sucky factory ammo was 1.2 moa just had a more accurate 3 round average group.

 

[Sandstrom]

Of course the bullet manufacturer wants you to shoot 100 shot groups;-)...

All kidding aside this is a great video with very well explained and laid out info!!! It gives me tons of “ammo” to use for the guys I shoot F class with with 1/4 moa guns that can’t shoot a 200 - 20X on a no wind day!!!

Ryan

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Loved it.

My take aways:

1. Hornady will have to stay sharp on producing factory ammo that's tight once guys start comparing their factory to competitors. Good for us factory ammo shooters, bit risky for Hornady lol.
2. The most reliable zero method a no brainer. Hunter only so the 3 shot cool for 7 groups will be a thing I apply. Good stuff. (well I may not actually get in 7 groups but will likely aim for 5 when time permits as I like to zero when I get into a hunting area and often take my gong and zero at 200 if on week long public land hunts, or worst case just before season opener on the actual private land I'll hunt)
3. The median radius was my last take away, fantastic info for a hunter or competitive shooter to work with in understanding their limitations.

 

[Formidilosus]

3. The median radius was my last take away, fantastic info for a hunter or competitive shooter to work with in understanding their limitations.

Actually mean radius is one of the most complicated and poorest ways to measure shots for a task that is miss centric. To know whether I should take a shot, I need to know what the “worst” shot is. I do not care about the “average” distance of miss as I do not know if I have an “average” round in the chamber, the best round in the chamber, or the worst. Therefor the worst mechanical shot is factored and the one chambered.

 

[Stinky Coyote]

Actually mean radius is one of the most complicated and poorest ways to measure shots for a task that is miss centric. To know whether I should take a shot, I need to know what the “worst” shot is. I do not care about the “average” distance of miss as I do not know if I have an “average” round in the chamber, the best round in the chamber, or the worst. Therefor the worst mechanical shot is factored and the one chambered.

I didn't say the worst wouldn't be taken into consideration. As a hunter my experience is the first shots of the day are usually my best and tend to do all prep and set up around them. Average group size is known, my best and worst known. I've just never looked at average from point of aim before so it was a take away for me. I'll see how it goes when I pull away from ice fishing and break out some gongs next year. Got some new bang sticks to play with so will need to get out a bit. Maybe I'll come to that conclusion as well but I found it an interesting look.

 

[Dobermann]

Cool. I am guessing at least one of those guys is a member on this forum.

Maybe ... but @Formidilosus is not one of them ... just for those who were wondering ...

 

[HighUintas]

Maybe ... but @Formidilosus is not one of them ... just for those who were wondering ...

Nope. they both showed more emotion than I've seen in any of Form's posts haha.

 

[3325]

It’s been done for years. Just like with shot group sizes; people don’t want to listen.

2 MOA. Hit rates do not go up in field environments out to 400’ish yards from 2 MOA to .5 MOA real group size. When your system is mechanically capable of consistently putting ten rounds into 2 MOA, out to 400 yards “precision” is not why you’re going to miss. Out to 600, 1.5 MOA. Past 600y, to about as far as one can shoot, a real 1 MOA gun is not the reason you will miss a game animal. Actually the hit rates from 1.3’ish MOA to .25 MOA are so close at longer ranges in field environments, that almost no one benefits from smaller group sizes.

I’ve always thought consistent 2 MOA is really good field shooting and far better than most shooters can do on demand.

For example: In the 600 yard prone stage of a high power/service rifle match, the X ring is 6” and the 10 ring is 12”. And it ain’t every match that experienced shooters will keep all 20 in the 10 ring.

 

[Formidilosus]

I’ve always thought consistent 2 MOA is really good field shooting and far better than most shooters can do on demand.

For example: In the 600 yard prone stage of a high power/service rifle match, the X ring is 6” and the 10 ring is 12”. And it ain’t every match that experienced shooters will keep all 20 in the 10 ring.

Yep. But I was referring to 2 MOA mechanical. The shooter still has to hit.