Wyoming G&F, how de we get a voice as NR's?

[idelkslayer]

The free market argument for tag prices doesn't make much sense to me. I don't think that the purpose of a government agency in charge of a public resource is to manage that resource for a profit. If the goal was to price the tags according to free market demand then they should just auction off every tag in the state and eliminate drawings altogether.

Instead, state game agencies should charge whatever is necessary to cover the costs of managing the resource. That means good equipment and competitive salaries for biologists, managers, and staff. Free market would only have a connection to tag prices as the cost of equipment and personnel increases. In that sense, the free market would affect tag prices.

Hunters who have wealth would still have an advantage in how many tags and hunting vacations they can afford and that is fine, they earned that advantage. However, the distribution of a public resource based on wealth is a non-starter for me.

 

[KurtR]

Sometimes. Last time I interacted with him, he was so wrong it was comical coming from him. He definitely knows his stuff usually.

I never did see why he got banned. Probably hurt a mods feelings or something.



People from multiple states have said non res should not get a say in their states affairs. Non res need to listen for once.

So all you non res need to quit trying to go behind their backs with donations and such. Quit being sneaky trying to get a say in their state! It’s ridiculous. Seems like a bribe, donating to influence something the way you want in their state. And definitely quit trying to bribe China.

I donate because I like habitat and animals just so happen to be a bi product. Going out to put nesting boxes out for ducks in a few weeks even though they fly away and other people might get to shoot them in a different state.

 

[dirtytough]

I donate because I like habitat and animals just so happen to be a bi product. Going out to put nesting boxes out for ducks in a few weeks even though they fly away and other people might get to shoot them in a different state.

Just make sure it’s in your state. If you do it as a non res the residents of that state might think you are trying to get a voice.

Unless of course it benefits them. I’m sure they will turn a blind eye at that point.

“You don’t live here so you don’t deserve having a voice in our affairs. We do need your donations though so we can have a bigger voice to fight something in our state that we dislike.”

On a serious note sweet deal. Hopefully the effort pays off and it accomplishes whatever your goal is.

 

[ScreamingPotato]

The free market argument for tag prices doesn't make much sense to me. I don't think that the purpose of a government agency in charge of a public resource is to manage that resource for a profit. If the goal was to price the tags according to free market demand then they should just auction off every tag in the state and eliminate drawings altogether.

Instead, state game agencies should charge whatever is necessary to cover the costs of managing the resource. That means good equipment and competitive salaries for biologists, managers, and staff. Free market would only have a connection to tag prices as the cost of equipment and personnel increases. In that sense, the free market would affect tag prices.

Hunters who have wealth would still have an advantage in how many tags and hunting vacations they can afford and that is fine, they earned that advantage. However, the distribution of a public resource based on wealth is a non-starter for me.

Well stated.

 

[dirtytough]

Here are a couple recent issues that have come up. Make sure if you are a resident you comment however you see fit. If you are a non res sorry, residents don’t think you should get a voice. So please respect their wishes.

Wyoming feed ground elimination

See link to learn about the proposal. https://www.fs.usda.gov/project/?project=60949 Click on this link to send your comments. https://cara.fs2c.usda.gov/Public//CommentInput?Project=60949&fbclid=IwAR3c24k_hv_EgKLDQ1g_68_q-VturICsQ_3Slg7odR7CWoP3aQzGVHecU_c Wyoming offers some of the best...

rokslide.com

Kenai River King Salmon - Circling the Drain

Apologies in advance for the long post. If you want to fast forward to the links at the end, here is the short version, I am hoping to drum up some public comments advocating for stronger conservation efforts for the imperiled king salmon runs on the world-famous Kenai River in Alaska. The...

rokslide.com

 

[william schmaltz]

Here are a couple recent issues that have come up. Make sure if you are a resident you comment however you see fit. If you are a non res sorry, residents don’t think you should get a voice. So please respect their wishes.

Not sure if it’s delusion or willful ignorance at this point. You still haven’t answered what state you’re in and what kind of NR opportunities they have. I can enlighten the group for you if that’s easier.

The Kenai has a historic NR/R take around 80/20%. There has never been a reasonable or largely promoted proposal to change that allocation. The Kenai issue is literally to keep the entire fishery closed down to all user groups to allow fish in the river. Even though the most impacted will be resident set netters and guides.

Please don’t comment. It’s probably best for sportsmen in general if folks with an attitude such as yours stay on the sidelines.

 

[dirtytough]

Not sure if it’s delusion or willful ignorance at this point. You still haven’t answered what state you’re in and what kind of NR opportunities they have. I can enlighten the group for you if that’s easier.

The Kenai has a historic NR/R take around 80/20%. There has never been a reasonable or largely promoted proposal to change that allocation. The Kenai issue is literally to keep the entire fishery closed down to all user groups to allow fish in the river. Even though the most impacted will be resident set netters and guides.

Please don’t comment. It’s probably best for sportsmen in general if folks with an attitude such as yours stay on the sidelines.

ND. If someone wants to know about opportunities they can figure that out. This thread isn’t about opportunities. It’s about how non res get a voice. Which residents have made perfectly clear non res shouldn’t have. And I’m not even arguing that non res should.

Multiple residents of multiple states in this thread basically say, “non res need to keep their nose out of our states business”

I am bringing it to residents attention, and reminding non residents to abide by the residents wishes. Are you saying non res need to use their voice for an issue about another states fish or wildlife? Because this is a 20+ page thread making it clear non res shouldn’t have a voice if they don’t live there.

 

[cowdisciple]

I think a “task force” is only in place to help camouflage the real reason, and voice. One will not find a state that has an outfitter’s and guides assoc(WYOGA) any deeper in bed with the state’s G & F commission.

Uh, have you met Alaska?

 

[ladogg411]

ND. ...

North Dakota resident complaining about Wyoming?

Are you engaged with your leaders in ND about how they aren't sharing elk and moose with NRs? Selfishly hoarding 100% for ND residents?

Wyoming has behaved horribly as to the NR fraud on moose and sheep points. But a ND resident should take care of the selfishness in his own state prior to criticizing another state.

 

[Glockster26]

North Dakota resident complaining about Wyoming?

Are you engaged with your leaders in ND about how they aren't sharing elk and moose with NRs? Selfishly hoarding 100% for ND residents?

Wyoming has behaved horribly as to the NR fraud on moose and sheep points. But a ND resident should take care of the selfishness in his own state prior to criticizing another state.

Dude, states can change the system at any point in time. If you didn’t understand this you weren’t paying attention. If your pissed now, just wait till DEA go 90/10.

 

[Archer86]

Dude, states can change the system at any point in time. If you didn’t understand this you weren’t paying attention. If your pissed now, just wait till DEA go 90/10.

Yup I have yet to see anything the guarantees me a tag in Utah arizona colorado when I am apply and gaining points they could change it tomorrow cut that tags to nothing and and that was the risk I took. It's a draw you can never guarantee who will apply with a set number of points its always luck of the draw.

One thing you can see is that wildlife has no value to some hunters unless they can kill it.
 

 

[Glockster26]

Yup I have yet to see anything the guarantees me a tag in Utah arizona colorado when I am apply and gaining points they could change it tomorrow cut that tags to nothing and and that was the risk I took. It's a draw you can never guarantee who will apply with a set number of points its always luck of the draw.

One thing you can see is that wildlife has no value to some hunters unless they can kill it.
 

I get that side of it too. I’m more apt to support things that I have the opportunity to enjoy.
I know that I’m never going to draw a sheep tag. I hope they stay on the landscape, but I’m not putting any of my time or money for their cause.

 

[svivian]

I get that side of it too. I’m more apt to support things that I have the opportunity to enjoy.
I know that I’m never going to draw a sheep tag. I hope they stay on the landscape, but I’m not putting any of my time or money for their cause.

What a sad and unfortunate but common perspective that many people share....

 

[Jake Larsen]

What a sad and unfortunate but common perspective that many people share....

It’s the difference between loving the Thing vs loving the IDEA of the Thing. It’s difficult (maybe impossible?) to love something without actually engaging with it. The vast majority of people who love ungulates enough to put time/money on the line in order to keep them on the landscape, engage with them directly. Strangely enough, it seems to be the opposite with the big predators. It’s the people in DC and LA who love the IDEA of grizzly bears and wolves roaming freely throughout the west, who have and will never engage with them in reality, who screw up any sort of proper management of those species.

On a somewhat related side note, I believe this is the best argument for managing for hunter opportunity in general across the west. If you lose engagement, you lose support. That’s the most realistic route to losing public support for public land diy hunting, and how we lose ballot initiatives imho. Look at bear/lion hunting in CO, WA, CA ect. Not enough people engaged with the actual animal in reality, so when the rubber meets the road, there’s no support.


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[Archer86]

On a somewhat related side note, I believe this is the best argument for managing for hunter opportunity in general across the west. If you lose engagement, you lose support. That’s the most realistic route to losing public support for public land diy hunting, and how we lose ballot initiatives imho. Look at bear/lion hunting in CO, WA, CA ect. Not enough people engaged with the actual animal in reality, so when the rubber meets the road, there’s no support.


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to just manage for hunter opportunities is basically saying hunters only care about killing and you will loose public support on that basis alone.

If hunting is going to continue on past another generation the idea of I only care if I can kill it needs to go away in the hunting community

Washington spring bear had plenty of support it was a corrupt game commission that ignored the science that shut down the spring bear hunt.

 

[Glockster26]

What a sad and unfortunate but common perspective that many people share....

Well…..it’s reality. If the good lord came down and told me I would never be able to hunt outside of Kansas again. I wouldn’t keep donating time and money to such causes in other states. Not many, if any spend money or time on hobbies they can’t or don’t partake in.
If a hypothetical Western state went 100% resident tags only are you still gonna buy points and donate to wiha or access programs? I doubt it. I would wager 99% of people wouldn’t either.

 

[Jake Larsen]

to just manage for hunter opportunities is basically saying hunters only care about killing and you will loose public support on that basis alone.

If hunting is going to continue on past another generation the idea of I only care if I can kill it needs to go away in the hunting community

Washington spring bear had plenty of support it was a corrupt game commission that ignored the science that shut down the spring bear hunt.

“to just manage for hunter opportunities is basically saying hunters only care about killing and you will loose public support on that basis alone”

There’s really only two ways to manage. You’re either managing for more hunter opportunities, or less hunter opportunities. Are you saying that limiting/reducing tags, moving the system towards “pay to play” is going to help us keep hunting?

“If hunting is going to continue on past another generation the idea of I only care if I can kill it needs to go away in the hunting community”

The hard anti hunters already have their mind made up, and we won’t sway them for the most part. It’s the neutral majority that will sink the ship. How do you think the next generation of hunters is going to come about? I’ve got a two year old that’s already obsessed with elk, deer, sheep, you name it. Why? Because of my interest in hunting, she is constantly exposed to the culture, lifestyle, eating the meat, looking at hunting photos and videos ect ect. If I’m not engaged, and I don’t engage my family with the animals, they won’t have any interest. You can pontificate all you want about the morality of caring about animals that we aren’t engaged with, but in reality that’s not how humans work. We need maximum engagement. From the existing hunters, their children, and new hunters.

“Washington spring bear had plenty of support it was a corrupt game commission that ignored the science that shut down the spring bear hunt.”

I guarantee you that if that corrupt game commission had tried to shut down deer or elk hunting, the public outcry would have been insane, every single hunting organization would have been laser focused on the issue, and it would have changed things. Where was that outcry over the bear season? The reality is that most hunters didn’t really care, because not that many people hunt bears.


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[Jake Larsen]

Well…..it’s reality. If the good lord came down and told me I would never be able to hunt outside of Kansas again. I wouldn’t keep donating time and money to such causes in other states. Not many, if any spend money or time on hobbies they can’t or don’t partake in.

Point made - we can either manage with the reality of how people operate in mind, or we can sit on our moral high horse and say that everybody should donate their time and money to things they aren’t engaged with. I have a feeling I know which is going to produce better results…


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[Archer86]

There’s really only two ways to manage. You’re either managing for more hunter opportunities, or less hunter opportunities. Are you saying that limiting/reducing tags, moving the system towards “pay to play” is going to help us keep hunting

You manage based on herd health not hunter opportunity. If there is no game to purse how can you issue tags?

If your all for hunter opportunities lets turn montana into the next colorado unlimited otc for all?

“If hunting is going to continue on past another generation the idea of I only care if I can kill it needs to go away in the hunting community”

The hard anti hunters already have their mind made up, and we won’t sway them for the most part. It’s the neutral majority that will sink the ship. How do you think the next generation of hunters is going to come about? I’ve got a two year old that’s already obsessed with elk, deer, sheep, you name it. Why? Because of my interest in hunting, she is constantly exposed to the culture, lifestyle, eating the meat, looking at hunting photos and videos ect ect. If I’m not engaged, and I don’t engage my family with the animals, they won’t have any interest. You can pontificate all you want about the morality of caring about animals that we aren’t engaged with, but in reality that’s not how humans work. We need maximum engagement. From the existing hunters, their children, and new hunters.

I have kids to they enjoy going hunting as any other kid that has been exposed to it But they also understand the enjoyment of engaging with the animals outside of hunting season just hiking or riding horses it can be exciting watching animals as well. The fact that you think the only way you can get maximum engament is having the ability to kill is a bad look and will be the ammo the anti hunters use to try and close hunting

Should we just wipe out the big horn sheep population so we can get maximum hunter Engament

 

[Jake Larsen]

You manage based on herd health not hunter opportunity. If there is no game to purse how can you issue tags?

I have kids to they enjoy going hunting as any other kid that has been exposed to it But they also understand the enjoyment of engaging with the animals outside of hunting season just hiking or riding horses it can be exciting watching animals as well. The fact that you think the only way you can get maximum engament is having the ability to kill is a bad look and will be the ammo the anti hunters use to try and close hunting

Should we just wipe out the big horn sheep population so we can get maximum hunter Engament

“You manage based on herd health not hunter opportunity. If there is no game to purse how can you issue tags?”

Obviously. I was referring to the broader philosophy of opportunity management vs trophy management

“The fact that you think the only way you can get maximum engament is having the ability to kill is a bad look and will be the ammo the anti hunters use to try and close hunting”

As earlier stated, the true antis are a very small number of folks; we aren’t going to sway them. And they’re already doing everything possible to shut hunting down. It’s the 80% of non hunter neutrals that will give the antis the votes they need to shut hunting down. How do we sway the opinion of those people? I would argue that happens by rubbing shoulders with hunters who are passionate and genuinely care about the animals they pursue, share game meat with non hunters ect ect. The more hunters there are, the more that influence spreads. When the vote comes to shut something down, those people will then think “I know Bob, he’s a good guy. He’s a hunter, he’s shared meat with me. I’m not going to vote against this” I think the way to combat the “bloodthirsty hunter” trope is to work on educating average people about where their food comes from. They kill also, they just kill with a credit card. I would say the “wild meat” aspect of hunting is one of the most powerful arguments for hunting. Look at the engagement of shows like MeatEater. That’s probably done more to sway neutral folks to support hunting than anything else.

I’m not saying I think it’s a “good” thing that in order to get engagement, we need to hunt. But it is REALITY, it’s baked in. I also don’t think it’s immoral to kill an animal. I enjoy scouting, hiking, and watching animals year around, and my kids are and will be a part of that. Animal behavior is what has always drawn and kept me as a hunter. I think most hunters feel the same way - we are drawn to the experience of hunting, the animals, and the landscape. But the pot at the end of that rainbow is putting hands on an amazing animal, and food on the table. As someone else already asked, would you donate money to a state for wildlife management that you will never hunt in? Most people will not.

This is literally the heart and soul of the N. American model of wildlife conservation. It’s arguable the only model of conservation that’s worked long term ever. So I hesitate to conclude that there’s a better way somehow

“Should we just wipe out the big horn sheep population so we can get maximum hunter”

Obviously not. I’m trying to have a good faith discussion and bring up some opposing viewpoints. Nuance is possible

And you’d be surprised about what’s possible when it comes to opportunity, even with bighorn sheep. The Unlimiteds in MT are a prime example. Opportunity on the worst possible odds of the most difficult possible tag still draws many people to think about/care about
and ultimately fund sheep conservation.


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