AK Sheep, Population Observations

[Thunder]

Not bagging on a 7yr study. Asked a simple question and got a defensive response.

I was referencing ADFG funding as a whole, not specific to sheep. I have zero information regarding sheep specific funds needs or levels.

A Circus could generate some revenue! Would you be interested in being the main act? I'll get the crowd warmed up for you.

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I didn’t mean for it to be defensive. But do you really think the current studies are going to be public so quickly? I would argue any study within the last 20 years is recent.

Of course I would help out in a circus if it’s for conservation. Sorry inside joke. But the ADFG sheep biologists would get the joke…

Not to derail the thread (any more) but ADFG is not underfunded. Could they spend more money? Of course, I haven’t found a state or Govt ran agency that couldn’t spend money. But as far as funding goes ADFG is sitting very well.

is this the part where I put in my occupation?

 

[fatbacks]

This blizzard we are currently experiencing will give DCUA sheep an early winter and two more storms are coming up the chain. It's nasty here!

This early snow certainly ain’t helping the situation. 8” of heavy wet cement like snow here in Fairbanks. Looks like both the Brooks and AK range are getting this as well


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[kaboku68]

Thunder. I was one of the guys you were laughing at about the problem with Eagles. Sure you might think from your office that you know exactly what is going on in the cycle of the sheep population. I really don't get a lot of information from many bios who are much more pressed to make analysis about big caribou herds or moose populations that seem to pay the bread and butter when it comes to a public demanded result for their work.
When I do my moonlighting job at night I talk with a lot of guides, hunters and outfitters. While bios and techs might talk to successful hunters and guides bringing in sheep to be sealed. I get to talk to everybody who comes back with stories of success or woe. Three different guides and 10 different hunters complained in particular about predatory behavior of hunting pairs of golden eagles. One outfitter who does a superb job on predatory control in his guide area watched a pair of goldens kill a 6 year old ram on a spire. They bombed him from his spot until he tumbled and then they cleaned up afterwards. I trust this guy. When an outfitter in the Central Alaska Range which is under a lot of weather pressure, hunting pressure and dynamics and bring forth this as a problem then it is a problem.

ADFG needs to look at it. Letters don't really work. I have tried those. Calls. Some bios are receptive and others are playing political jockeying games with any number of board members and outdoor councils. I don't believe that the solution is to make the central and western Alaskan range and the Brooks Range into draw and go to a 1 ram in four years in a number of locations. That seems to be the trend.

I do like the fact that you can pencil out 2-3 weeks in the fall to dedicate major sectors of your life to pursue what I believe is the greatest game animal on earth. Guides have tools that can really improve their clients chances but there is something special about doing it on your own.

Just my view and most people can run over it or laugh at it.

 

[Thunder]

Thunder. I was one of the guys you were laughing at about the problem with Eagles. Sure you might think from your office that you know exactly what is going on in the cycle of the sheep population. I really don't get a lot of information from many bios who are much more pressed to make analysis about big caribou herds or moose populations that seem to pay the bread and butter when it comes to a public demanded result for their work.
When I do my moonlighting job at night I talk with a lot of guides, hunters and outfitters. While bios and techs might talk to successful hunters and guides bringing in sheep to be sealed. I get to talk to everybody who comes back with stories of success or woe. Three different guides and 10 different hunters complained in particular about predatory behavior of hunting pairs of golden eagles. One outfitter who does a superb job on predatory control in his guide area watched a pair of goldens kill a 6 year old ram on a spire. They bombed him from his spot until he tumbled and then they cleaned up afterwards. I trust this guy. When an outfitter in the Central Alaska Range which is under a lot of weather pressure, hunting pressure and dynamics and bring forth this as a problem then it is a problem.

ADFG needs to look at it. Letters don't really work. I have tried those. Calls. Some bios are receptive and others are playing political jockeying games with any number of board members and outdoor councils. I don't believe that the solution is to make the central and western Alaskan range and the Brooks Range into draw and go to a 1 ram in four years in a number of locations. That seems to be the trend.

I do like the fact that you can pencil out 2-3 weeks in the fall to dedicate major sectors of your life to pursue what I believe is the greatest game animal on earth. Guides have tools that can really improve their clients chances but there is something special about doing it on your own.

Just my view and most people can run over it or laugh at it.

kaboku68,
I wasn't targeting you with my eagle comment. I was commenting to the assclown that said he's going to shoot every predator he sees while hunting and he's going to start to SSS eagles. Luckily he's a mediocre hunter at best so he's going to have a tough time accomplishing those feats. I've never denied eagles get sheep. Please show me where I've said otherwise if you think so....

I find your office reference hilarious that you use it to devalue my opinion but you yourself work at sportmans warehouse (another type of office) and rely on information provided by guides and hunters? Haahaha. I'm sure the information you get from them isn't biased at ALL. hahahahahha. Being a teacher I understand your time in the field is limited in the fall, hopefully once retirement hits you can experience the beautiful alaska fall like the rest of us.

If you think killing a few eagles and other predators are going to fix this problem with the sheep I'm sorry but I can't agree with you on that. It's a much more complicated "problem" than that. One shouldn't kill other animals for simple fact of boosting an ungulate population so we can shoot them and stroke our egos.

Have a nice day,

 

[SLDMTN]

@Thunder what is your opinion on how to best help our struggling sheep populations? Not trying to be sarcastic or demeaning in any form. If there’s a better way, I want to know. If there’s a way we can get involved, I want to know.

I was corrected on how much money AK WSF gives to the state for sheep research. According to the board member I spoke with, the state won’t let them conduct their own surveys and research like other states do.

Also notable is how outfitters like Big Nine in Canada are managing their sheep herds. Controlling (not eliminating) wolf populations, using salt blocks and supplying feed during the hardest months. One of the (sarcasm)terrible horrible guides that’s ruining our populations(sarcasm) who completely stopped their sheep hunts for the foreseeable future, hunted with Big Nine this year and said it was breathtaking. Sheep everywhere, like they used to be in Alaska.

 

[kaboku68]

Thanks Everyone.This issue will resonate and that is what I wanted.

 

[Thunder]

@Thunder what is your opinion on how to best help our struggling sheep populations? Not trying to be sarcastic or demeaning in any form. If there’s a better way, I want to know. If there’s a way we can get involved, I want to know.

I was corrected on how much money AK WSF gives to the state for sheep research. According to the board member I spoke with, the state won’t let them conduct their own surveys and research like other states do.

Also notable is how outfitters like Big Nine in Canada are managing their sheep herds. Controlling (not eliminating) wolf populations, using salt blocks and supplying feed during the hardest months. One of the (sarcasm)terrible horrible guides that’s ruining our populations(sarcasm) who completely stopped their sheep hunts for the foreseeable future, hunted with Big Nine this year and said it was breathtaking. Sheep everywhere, like they used to be in Alaska.

@SLDMTN I wish I could give the answer. I don't think anyone knows. But to sit here and largely blame predators I believe is simplistic thinking for a complicated problem. I wish it was that easy.

While I feel its not a fair comparison between Canada and the US its interesting to see what others are doing. I haven't looked into how Canada is managing their predators. Are they aerial gunning? Poisoning? Or by managing are you just saying they are trapping and opportunistic harvest? If so that's no different than what many are doing here. I would argue Canada's sheep are doing better for various other reasons like less severe winters, mild springs, better habitat? Look at the brush encroachment into the alpine in the last 30 years in AK. That can't be a good thing for the sheep. Many of our sheep populations are so close to the coasts where we have been getting horrible winters/springs. Maybe the Canadian sheep are more protected because they are inland more? I don't really know as I've read few studies from that country.

I agree with you there's a lot of people that would get involved if there was a solution. This isn't desert sheep in the lower 48 where you can put in a guzzler with some sweat and hard work. Or buying out livestock leases to prevent range maggots from passing diseases to bighorns. It's much more complicated than that IMHO.

And thats all it is at end of the day, my opinion. Take it for what its worth, free....

 

[Sourdough]

When they say how many Alaska hunting licenses are issued each year, how is that broken out.......??? And does that number include, "Permanent lifetime" Licenses....those may not be counted, but that number is likely accelerating.

 

[Sourdough]

But to sit here and largely blame predators I believe is simplistic thinking for a complicated problem. I wish it was that easy.

Are you familiar with the study of the wolves in the upper Susitna River area in the mid 70's.......??? It is very educational about wolves, and to a surprising extent Grizzly Bears. Most would "not" believe what was learned about wolves. I watched that Bell "Jet Ranger" go up in flames with (I think) 20'some Wolves inside.

 

[SLDMTN]

@SLDMTN I wish I could give the answer. I don't think anyone knows. But to sit here and largely blame predators I believe is simplistic thinking for a complicated problem. I wish it was that easy.

While I feel its not a fair comparison between Canada and the US its interesting to see what others are doing. I haven't looked into how Canada is managing their predators. Are they aerial gunning? Poisoning? Or by managing are you just saying they are trapping and opportunistic harvest? If so that's no different than what many are doing here. I would argue Canada's sheep are doing better for various other reasons like less severe winters, mild springs, better habitat? Look at the brush encroachment into the alpine in the last 30 years in AK. That can't be a good thing for the sheep. Many of our sheep populations are so close to the coasts where we have been getting horrible winters/springs. Maybe the Canadian sheep are more protected because they are inland more? I don't really know as I've read few studies from that country.

I agree with you there's a lot of people that would get involved if there was a solution. This isn't desert sheep in the lower 48 where you can put in a guzzler with some sweat and hard work. Or buying out livestock leases to prevent range maggots from passing diseases to bighorns. It's much more complicated than that IMHO.

And thats all it is at end of the day, my opinion. Take it for what its worth, free....

Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to type that. My opinion would be that as a whole if we could help via food/minerals in the hard months, predator control becomes much less of an issue.

Certain areas it doesn’t seem to matter having less hunting pressure. Take 13D, it’s been draw for a decade-ish and the overall population hasn’t really increased. Weather? Probably. Encroaching brush line? Could be a factor.

I don’t know state sheep funding numbers. I do know the state as a whole has much less money than it used to. If it’s funding, let us volunteer and help through orgs like WSF or like what KUIU has done.

I’m open to any suggestions or actions, I’m just terrible at the “wait and see” approach that seems to be happening currently. Hopefully I’m wrong yet again and they’re doing SOMETHING. If that’s the case, some transparency could really diffuse the pessimism among residents.


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[Thunder]

Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to type that. My opinion would be that as a whole if we could help via food/minerals in the hard months, predator control becomes much less of an issue.

Certain areas it doesn’t seem to matter having less hunting pressure. Take 13D, it’s been draw for a decade-ish and the overall population hasn’t really increased. Weather? Probably. Encroaching brush line? Could be a factor.

I don’t know state sheep funding numbers. I do know the state as a whole has much less money than it used to. If it’s funding, let us volunteer and help through orgs like WSF or like what KUIU has done.

I’m open to any suggestions or actions, I’m just terrible at the “wait and see” approach that seems to be happening currently. Hopefully I’m wrong yet again and they’re doing SOMETHING. If that’s the case, some transparency could really diffuse the pessimism among residents.


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Couldn’t agree more! I think ADFG didn’t really have to manage for so long but now that numbers are low people expect them to do something.

 

[Thunder]

Are you familiar with the study of the wolves in the upper Susitna River area in the mid 70's.......??? It is very educational about wolves, and to a surprising extent Grizzly Bears. Most would "not" believe what was learned about wolves. I watched that Bell "Jet Ranger" go up in flames with (I think) 20'some Wolves inside.

Just a part of it used in a much recent paper. It was from late 70s and 80% of calf deaths had a bear on them (moose calves). The article didn’t say anything about wolves. Feel free to post a link or pics of it. I heard it’s only a few pages but have only seen part of one page…

 

[Arcticmanak]

FWIW
Hunted the DCUA this year and did not see a legal ram. Can't speak from experience as it was my first sheep hunt in quite a few years. Talked to the Delta F&G office this week and they said only 10 rams were so far reported taken in DS203 and only 7 in 204. The lowest harvest results in the last ten years is what they said.
Consolation prize was the wolf taken near the end of the hunt.

 

[kaboku68]

There are a lot of scruffy trappers that run in the south wrangells. I wonder if there is something to that.

 

[Sourdough]

Just a part of it used in a much recent paper. It was from late 70s and 80% of calf deaths had a bear on them (moose calves). The article didn’t say anything about wolves. Feel free to post a link or pics of it. I heard it’s only a few pages but have only seen part of one page…

The wolf study was in the mid 70's as a result of that study, and after they moved (I think) 24'ish wolves clear past the far side of Denali National Park, and they returned to the upper Susitna River in just a few days (we were all stunned). They shot gunned all the radio collared wolves in the study, and had them in the helicopter, when it burned up while refueling at the Susitna Lodge (I think late Sept. or Oct. 1975). That study and the hoped for conclusion, led to the Grizzly Bear study in the same area late 70's.

My main point in bringing this up, is that those wolves covered over 150 miles in a pretty much straight line just a few days. All but two returned, the last of them to make it back took 12 days goofing around, but they returned.
I have never seen the actual study report, I would love to.

 

[Sourdough]

Likely "not" as scruffy as the trapper in Fairbanks that killed 24 moose for wolf bait, two or three years ago.

 

[kaboku68]

Chokosna is pretty freaking scruffy.

 

[fatbacks]

If every sheep hunter in Alaska went out and did their best to get a wolf this winter, that might be a place to start... I don't think we are going to agree on the res vs non res anytime soon. But shooting wolves certainly won't hurt the situation

 

[VernAK]

The number of non-resident sheep hunters will probably decline as hunt prices rise and success rate declines. At least I would think so.

 

[AKHUNTER]

I just want to see photos of Sourdough's critters from the past 10 years.