AK Sheep, Population Observations

[Thunder]

I just want to see photos of Sourdough's critters from the past 10 years.

Here you go:

 

[ColeyG]

Here are a few interesting tidbits from past studies on lamb and adult mortality. Nothing recent but still relevant I think.

Scotton Study in the Central AK Range, 1995 and 1996

I captured and radiocollared 62 neonatal Dali sheep {Ovis dalli) in the central Alaska Range during the spring of 1995 (n = 25) and 1996 (n = 37)...

Twenty-three of the 56 lambs included in analysis died before one year of age. I attributed most lamb mortality (96%) to predation. Sixty-five percent of lamb deaths occurred within 60 days of birth; the remainder occurred primarily during winter. Coyotes (Canis latram) accounted for 43% of all deaths, eagles {Aquila chrysaetos) 22%, wolves (Canis lupus) 4%, other large predators 9%, and unknown canids 17% (i.e., either wolves or coyotes). One lamb (4%) died in a rockslide. Heavier lambs exhibited higher survival (P = 0.047) than lighter lambs. Despite the 3-fold increase of the wolf population during my study, I detected no increase in wolf predation on lambs. Predation on young sheep by coyotes and eagles may slow the growth rate of sheep populations following weather-induced declines.

https://scholarworks.umt.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=&httpsredir=1&article=7539&context=etd

Excerpts from an ADN Article Re: Lohuis Chugach Study

Only 21 percent of 66 lambs collared in 2009-2011 were known to survive a year. Predators killed 35 percent of the lambs, while 38 percent succumbed to other causes, like avalanches, rockslides, falls, drowning, disease, and malnutrition. The fate of 6 percent of the lambs couldn't be determined.

Golden eagles were the leading lamb predator, closely followed by wolverines and brown bears. It's likely that not all eagles learn how to knock lambs off their feet, killing or fatally injuring them in the subsequent tumble down the mountain. Fortunately for the sheep, golden eagle predation occurs primarily in the first three weeks of a lamb's life. Wolves, black bears, and coyotes each accounted for 1 of 52 lamb mortalities, with two additional lamb carcasses visited by several predator species.

Surprisingly, Lohuis has found ewe mortality to be relatively low in this study area. In the past four years, adult mortality has averaged nine percent a year, better than that found in the Alaska and Brooks ranges. Of 13 mortalities where the cause of death was known, only three ewes were killed by a wolverine or wolf. Most of the remaining deaths were attributed to avalanches or disease.

Predation not likely cause of Dall sheep crash in Alaska's Chugach Mountains

Dall sheep populations in the northern Chugach Mountain, like other areas in Alaska, are about half what they were 25 years ago. In Chugach State Park alone, numbers have declined from about 2,400 animals to 1,200.

www.adn.com

 

[ColeyG]

As with many population problems, it seems like sheep face the same "deaths of a thousand cuts" scenario. There is not one problem that if corrected would send populations bouncing back and no silver bullet to help accomplish that.

 

[Sourdough]

As with many population problems, it seems like sheep face the same "deaths of a thousand cuts" scenario. There is not one problem that if corrected would send populations bouncing back and no silver bullet to help accomplish that.

Yet there "IS" one thing over which humans have the power to change, which may not be a silver bullet, but at least we have pretty much "full" control of implementing.

Close all sheep hunting till fall of 2025. Then open with much shorter seasons, and only in areas strong enough to support sport hunting.

 

[AlaskaMark]

Broken record ...here's where we are at, in reality:

1) There are no existing avenues to conduct predator control to help sheep populations
2) We can't control the weather, avalanches, drownings etc

There is one thing that we do have the means to control, and that is hunters.

Alaska is Alaska. It's not B.C., NWT or the Yukon. We are unique in how we manage our sheep, our guides, and sheep hunting opportunities. So with all due respect, any comparisons to Canada are meaningless.

And I recommend resorting to facts when certain things come up, like ADFG funding. Anyone can look at the Dept's budget online: https://omb.alaska.gov/html/budget-report/department-table.html?dept=Fish&fy=20&type=Enacted

The Dept has adequate funding and indeed will get plenty of P-R funds with the Biden administration. Part of my job entails keeping track of ADFG funding and when possible helping DWC to secure necessary funding. Last session RHAK and the other orgs helped get SB 22 passed, to continue the IM hunting license surcharge fee that was set to be repealed.

Some may not be aware, but with very few exceptions (like the IM hunting license surcharge above), monies that go to F&G cannot be dedicated to specific projects or species; with wildlife it all goes into the DWC general fund. Sheep population surveys (density estimates) are difficult to do, and all we have done and continue to do are trend counts in certain units. We also have some ongoing sheep research projects, like what Dr Lohuis is doing. It isn't that there is no money for sheep surveys/research. It's that the Dept is committed still to the notion that the FC management regime is sustainable, hence no need to conduct more extensive sheep density estimates. All aerial surveys require good flying weather, and at times weather prevents surveys, not lack of funding toward it.

The F&G Advisory committees (I'm vice-chair of the Fairbanks AC) also keep track of these issues, among many others. Would be great to see some of you more involved with ACs, with the knowledge you have. Yes, it can be time consuming, we're all busy with life and work and family, but it sure beats the internet for actually influencing things.

 

[SLDMTN]

Broken record ...here's where we are at, in reality:

1) There are no existing avenues to conduct predator control to help sheep populations
2) We can't control the weather, avalanches, drownings etc

There is one thing that we do have the means to control, and that is hunters.

Alaska is Alaska. It's not B.C., NWT or the Yukon. We are unique in how we manage our sheep, our guides, and sheep hunting opportunities. So with all due respect, any comparisons to Canada are meaningless.

And I recommend resorting to facts when certain things come up, like ADFG funding. Anyone can look at the Dept's budget online: https://omb.alaska.gov/html/budget-report/department-table.html?dept=Fish&fy=20&type=Enacted

The Dept has adequate funding and indeed will get plenty of P-R funds with the Biden administration. Part of my job entails keeping track of ADFG funding and when possible helping DWC to secure necessary funding. Last session RHAK and the other orgs helped get SB 22 passed, to continue the IM hunting license surcharge fee that was set to be repealed.

Some may not be aware, but with very few exceptions (like the IM hunting license surcharge above), monies that go to F&G cannot be dedicated to specific projects or species; with wildlife it all goes into the DWC general fund. Sheep population surveys (density estimates) are difficult to do, and all we have done and continue to do are trend counts in certain units. We also have some ongoing sheep research projects, like what Dr Lohuis is doing. It isn't that there is no money for sheep surveys/research. It's that the Dept is committed still to the notion that the FC management regime is sustainable, hence no need to conduct more extensive sheep density estimates. All aerial surveys require good flying weather, and at times weather prevents surveys, not lack of funding toward it.

The F&G Advisory committees (I'm vice-chair of the Fairbanks AC) also keep track of these issues, among many others. Would be great to see some of you more involved with ACs, with the knowledge you have. Yes, it can be time consuming, we're all busy with life and work and family, but it sure beats the internet for actually influencing things.

With all due respect in return I disagree that a comparison to CA for sheep management is meaningless. They are still at the end of the day, sheep. Same predators, same hardships every year. Just because those particular management practices aren't allowed in Alaska doesn't mean that couldn't change. I'm sure you remember the moose management paper ADFG published on the comparison between Alaska and Scandinavia? We can learn from ALL research and ALL management practices.

http://www.adfg.alaska.gov/static/home/library/pdfs/wildlife/research_pdfs/comparison_moose_management_scandinavia_alaska.pdf

Let's look at the draw portion of Unit 13D. In 2020 there were 27 hunters in the entire area. That only factors in people who actually hunted DS160/165, DS260/265 and the Governor's Tag holder. Of those 27 hunters, 20 were residents. In total only 14 sheep were taken from an area that large. Only 5 non-resident sheep were taken. It's been a draw area for over a decade and populations are still extremely low.

Reading the sheep report from ADFG when they were conducting aerial surveys to include measuring back fat levels, the herd in 13D had on average less fat than those surveyed in the Brooks. This takes me back to the CA approach, if winter is our biggest killer then how could we not look at what they're doing and make a push to implement something similar?

 

[AlaskaMark]

SLDMTN, I didn't mean to infer we should not look at how CA manages their sheep, and learn what we can from that. Or incorporate things here that work there. Surely we could. But we don't. And we haven't. Unlike CA, we have no limits in many cases on # of sheep hunters or guides. That's the only thing we can easily change that will make a difference right off and decrease the human mortality.

As for 13D, I guess my point is; if we don't do something now, the areas with no limits will all end up like TMA, DCUA, Chugach, and they won't recover and ever be gen sheep hunting again. How many times has everyone heard, "It's all gonna go draw for all down the line"? That has always seemed to me more of a "get 'em while we still can" sort of mentality, "there's nothing we can do to stop it."

We can at minimum do something to stave off that happening to residents, by limiting the # of nonresident sheep hunters now on all state lands that aren't already on draw. It's the right thing to do as a start. It's what CA does on their lands, along with limiting # of guides.

 

[SLDMTN]

SLDMTN, I didn't mean to infer we should not look at how CA manages their sheep, and learn what we can from that. Or incorporate things here that work there. Surely we could. But we don't. And we haven't. Unlike CA, we have no limits in many cases on # of sheep hunters or guides. That's the only thing we can easily change that will make a difference right off and decrease the human mortality.

As for 13D, I guess my point is; if we don't do something now, the areas with no limits will all end up like TMA, DCUA, Chugach, and they won't recover and ever be gen sheep hunting again. How many times has everyone heard, "It's all gonna go draw for all down the line"? That has always seemed to me more of a "get 'em while we still can" sort of mentality, "there's nothing we can do to stop it."

We can at minimum do something to stave off that happening to residents, by limiting the # of nonresident sheep hunters now on all state lands that aren't already on draw. It's the right thing to do as a start. It's what CA does on their lands, along with limiting # of guides.

Thanks Mark, I appreciate the insight.

-Kyle


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Thunder]

SLDMTN, I didn't mean to infer we should not look at how CA manages their sheep, and learn what we can from that. Or incorporate things here that work there. Surely we could. But we don't. And we haven't. Unlike CA, we have no limits in many cases on # of sheep hunters or guides. That's the only thing we can easily change that will make a difference right off and decrease the human mortality.

As for 13D, I guess my point is; if we don't do something now, the areas with no limits will all end up like TMA, DCUA, Chugach, and they won't recover and ever be gen sheep hunting again. How many times has everyone heard, "It's all gonna go draw for all down the line"? That has always seemed to me more of a "get 'em while we still can" sort of mentality, "there's nothing we can do to stop it."

We can at minimum do something to stave off that happening to residents, by limiting the # of nonresident sheep hunters now on all state lands that aren't already on draw. It's the right thing to do as a start. It's what CA does on their lands, along with limiting # of guides.

What’s RHAKs current stance on aerial spotting?

 

[AlaskaMark]

What’s RHAKs current stance on aerial spotting?

Sigh, c'mon.

 

[Thunder]

Sigh, c'mon.

And there you have it boys.

 

[JohnB]

Thanks all for the informative discussion. As someone who knows diddly about sheep and will likely never hunt one it's interesting to read about.

 

[Fullcry]

New to this site.
But many years of sheep steps for me too.
I really like the trade of info.
Kinda partial to the old school stuff but the young guys have some good points too.
I just can’t stand the insults,that’s were a guys good points go out the window.And folks lose credibility.
Just because 2 people don’t agree doesn’t
Mean someone automatically is a Liar.
Just my thoughts.

 

[Thunder]

New to this site.
But many years of sheep steps for me too.
I really like the trade of info.
Kinda partial to the old school stuff but the young guys have some good points too.
I just can’t stand the insults,that’s were a guys good points go out the window.And folks lose credibility.
Just because 2 people don’t agree doesn’t
Mean someone automatically is a Liar.
Just my thoughts.

If you spread misinformation prepare to be called out by someone. Take it like a man or get your feelings hurt. It doesn’t matter.

Sheep hunters are the fly fishermen of the hunting world.

 

[kaboku68]

Most of us get along very well. But there are different factions. We are all trying to get our cake and eat it too. Each generation wishes to live in the generation in the past. We are way more comfortable than what the hunters of the past had to endure but many of them had three weeks to get it done and a lot less competition in a much bigger area for a better resource. It is harder right now for a sheep hunter than any time in the past. There are a huge number of factors involved. I can tell you this taking your first ram is truly one of the greatest highlights in your life if you truly work for it. I ask a question of people that often takes them aback when they shoot their first sheep. Did you bawl like a baby? I know that I did. Sheep are truly amazing creatures and hunting them is perhaps the best time that one has on earth.

When I was growing up we used to go to Jay Seskies homestead cabin and go around Suzy's trail to the rock off of Salmon point. We could fish there till we got 200 reds and Kings that were enough for our family to eat. We largely had the place to ourselves. When my sister and I were in teacher training 28 years ago my sister inadvertently shared the location with one of our classmates. We didn't know at the time that his wife was a writer for the Anchorage Times. She went with him and they took 15 kings that were all large from the king hole. It took them two days to pack them out. The woman returned our generosity by writing a story about their trip and Salmon Point has never been the same since. Many times there would be 20-30 people lined up down there. It never was the same. Right now I betcha 80% of the Alaskans on here know where Salmon Point is and have at least walked down to it. The dangers of sheep hunting is that the knowledge that we know can almost completely destroy a resource or change it to the extent that it will never be the same again.

I used to help many people with ideas of where to go sheep hunting and some would score and some wouldn't ever hunt sheep again. I am know in a place that I worry less about the continuation of sheep hunters and now worry about the possibilities of hunting sheep without a draw. I have worked hard for a long time and want to go on long hunts. It is just my luck to retire and find out the whole state has gone draw. But I am more worried about the sustainability of the sheep populations. I love watching the lambs learning to run cliffs in the spring. Ewes are just weird creatures. Rams are smart suckers. Big rams are really smart suckers. Oh to become a mountain creature. It is the highlight of a hunters life to chase after them in their favored terrain.

My uncle was a guidance counselor in Valdez. He loved to hunt moose. When he was young his family had to eat old mutton from sheep that were about done. He went in up Manker Creek and had three monster rams come up to his track rig and just look it over. I asked him why he didn't pop one of them(this is when it was just an open harvest ticket). He said I hated that old mutton he had to eat as a kid and promised himself that he would never be forced to eat an old sheep when he grew up. I just shook my head. He really loved sheep meat after I gave him some. Just makes people think about perspectives.

I would share a campfire with anybody on here and help people in the best way that I can. But sheep knowledge really needs to be earned with boot leather and hard work. People need to find a mentor and start building files and start learning. They best get busy if they want to get it done before it is a statewide draw.

 

[Sourdough]

Manker Creek

"Manker Creek"..........Heaven and Hell.
That should take up three, maybe four chapters, in a book that will never be written.

 

[ColeyG]

One of my sheep hunting partners made a comment recently that hit me like a hammer on the head. He said that the most challenging part of most hunts these days is out hunting the competition, not out smarting the animal.

In a lot of ways I agree, though certainly there are still places where you get away from the "crowds" in AK, that typically takes more time, effort, and logistics that most are willing to invest. Even then, it only takes one super cub with two dudes in it to really change your wilderness experience.

 

[Thunder]

One of my sheep hunting partners made a comment recently that hit me like a hammer on the head. He said that the most challenging part of most hunts these days is out hunting the competition, not out smarting the animal.

In a lot of ways I agree, though certainly there are still places where you get away from the "crowds" in AK, that typically takes more time, effort, and logistics that most are willing to invest. Even then, it only takes one super cub with two dudes in it to really change your wilderness experience.

Interesting perspective.

 

[Sourdough]

not out smarting the animal.

See that is "part" of what is removed from "past" hunting experience. Today the "archer" still must outsmart the animal with skill. Zero or very-very little "hunting" skill in shooting and animal at 633 yards. It is no longer hunting (in the classic concept). It is scouting where is the "best" place for everyone to hunt, "using" the internet. So it would be reasonable that everyone is crowding the same location.

Fortunately there is a solution.

 

[Sourdough]

that the most challenging part of most hunts these days is out hunting the competition, not out smarting the animal.

Which could explain (in part) why it is so popular to dry-gulch the "single easiest and stupidest animal in Alaska, after paying someone else to scout for you, find the herd for you, and transport you next to the herd. That is "SHOOTING SKILL ONLY", same as rifle range target shooting. All of the "actual hunting" parts of classic hunting, has been marketed to those seduced into believing they are hunters.

It will get worse.

With Luck an "urgent" effort could be made to salvage "some" of the pride of calling oneself "Hunter".