British smiths and custom rifle builders refusing to work on Bergara rifles because of their bad quality?

[ssimo]

Today i was involved in a conversation on a british hunting forum. It was a purely recreational topic: the most overrated hunting rifles on the market. At some point people started bashing remington as usual until a guy, who seem to be a pretty famous custom rifle builder in the UK, said that bergaras are so bad he even refuses to work on them if a customer wanna use one for a project. Someone else suddenly said "Reports are dodgy Quality control, wildly variable accuracy, poor metal quality. A couple of well known riflesmiths I know (one may or may not post on here a bit) refuse to use components-one stating he “wouldn’t grow tomatoes up one”.



I never heard anything this extreme. Of course, multiple members popped up reinforcing what this smith said, even saying that most gunsmiths and custom rifles builder the UK refuse to work with these rifles. Someone said Bergaras have a very bad reputation and I shouldn’t be surprised About what i was reading.



I am wondering if this phenomenon, which i am really doubtful exists, especially to the extent some guys stated on that forum, exists in the US. I should add that i wrote in that forum a few months ago, before purchasing my last rifle, to ask about bergaras and the general consensus was positive even there (?).



my experience with b14s is limited to a handful of rifles and was great for what is worth



Thanks!!

 

[LoggerDan]

Well, Brits appreciate fine quality and workmanship, so this doesn’t surprise me. Americans just love “fancy” junk.

 

[carter33]

Well, Brits appreciate fine quality and workmanship, so this doesn’t surprise me. Americans just love “fancy” junk.

When it's hard enough to own a single gun I guess you have to be picky on quality.

 

[SDHNTR]

Europeans value craftsmanship in a rifle. They are to be cherished and passed down. You save up for one because it’s an heirloom and built to last.

Americans value cheap.

 

[Macintosh]

I think you get strong opinions among people who really obsess over stuff like that on both sides of the pond. Brit smiths, at least the few Ive met or corresponded with in the US, are very invested in workmanship and a high degree of polish. This is the tradition that put scroll engraving on the INSIDE of guns. Many mass-produced guns by design have a different set of priorities, some bad just to hit a price point or allow a more automated or streamlined manufacturing process, etc. there’s two sides to every coin. I have no doubt that is true among some people. I just think in order to understand what that means its necessary to understand what exactly the issues are that they have a problem with—maybe those things are problematic for you, maybe not. Example, lots of people wouldnt own a glock pistol if their life depended on it in part because of plastic and because there is no semblence of “workmanship” or pride in the making of it, and yet they are one of the more reliable and relied-upon platforms out there. If your reputation and your inclination both revolve around high-end product, it might just be “off brand” in a negative way to have product out in the world that is never going to match up with how you want to be viewed and what you want to produce, even if at its heart its a very functional tool within its intended purpose.

 

[ssimo]

Europeans value craftsmanship in a rifle. They are to be cherished and passed down. You save up for one because it’s an heirloom and built to last.

Americans value cheap.

Not sure craftsmanship is much related to function and to the possibility to pass the gun down to your son. But for example metal quality is related to both. I never thought bergaras were known for bad metal quality for example

 

[Mojave]

Mayfair and outfits like them that build actions themselves probably would turn up their nose at a Bergara.

Bolt Action | Mayfair Engineering

mayfairengineering.com

 

[ssimo]

I think you get strong opinions among people who really obsess over stuff like that on both sides of the pond. Brit smiths, at least the few Ive met or corresponded with in the US, are very invested in workmanship and a high degree of polish. This is the tradition that put scroll engraving on the INSIDE of guns. Many mass-produced guns by design have a different set of priorities, some bad just to hit a price point or allow a more automated or streamlined manufacturing process, etc. there’s two sides to every coin. I have no doubt that is true among some people. I just think in order to understand what that means its necessary to understand what exactly the issues are that they have a problem with—maybe those things are problematic for you, maybe not. Example, lots of people wouldnt own a glock pistol if their life depended on it in part because of plastic and because there is no semblence of “workmanship” or pride in the making of it, and yet they are one of the more reliable and relied-upon platforms out there. If your reputation and your inclination both revolve around high-end product, it might just be “off brand” in a negative way to have product out in the world that is never going to match up with how you want to be viewed and what you want to produce, even if at its heart its a very functional tool within its intended purpose.

This was his reply:

"Rifle 1

Cracked bottom metal, bolt shroud very loose fitting in bolt thread (a common fault), extraction very poor, machining marks in action raceways and sharp burs on some surfaces (poor qc)

Rifle 2

Extraction issues, feed issue due to stock poor inlet leading to binding of bolt on mag
(Poor qc)

Rifle 3

Recoil lug set at angle, poor machining of feed ramp (rough), barrel loads machining marks in chamber, bolt lugs scored badly

(Poor machining, poor assembly and poor qc)

Rifle 4

Accuracy very poor, returned by customer to supplying shop, replaced with similar model but carbon wrapped barrel, exactly same - would not group, money back bought another brand and retained it (nothing wrong with end users ability to place bullets in strategic place as they worked in a professional capacity for a number of years doing just that)

Barrels x2 both supplied by clients for builds (I no longer do client supplied barrel builds)

Barrel 1 machined fine till came to chambering and then material came out in irregular chips and left scalloped marks in chamber (I chamber using high pressure chip removal pump fixture and countless barrels since 2007) the issue was soft or improperly hardened steel (the reamer has sharp, had made several accurate chambers prior to and after with other brand barrels )

Barrel 2 - machining marks in barrel and surface very coarse - refused to continue with job barrel replaced with a Lothar Walther)

These are all historic (4-5 yrs ago) but since you persistently asked there it is with warts and all

I’m sure other brands also have issues but none were as consistent in presentation as this brand all within a few months (rifles)

The barrel issues came about 9 months later Whixh is when I decided that I would no longer work on or use this brand at all

Why on earth would I risk my reputation working on or using a product I have zero faith in"

Now, this is a sample of 4. The only real issues for me would be the feeding and accuracy issues. The other stuff i don't care at all as long as it doesn't impact function.
Either he was very unlucky or i was very lucky because i have owned 2 b14, my brother other 2. I have never withessed feeding issues, parts breaking or poor accuracy. It seems like bergara qc went down a bit lately (who knows how much with the thousands of rifles sold) but as long as getting a lemon means finding bad accuracy or cycling, this means that once you test your rifle, of it works fine, now you have a good rifle in your hands. If you start questioning more structural stuff like the quality of metals or the durability of parts, that's much worse.

I even did a little home made survey with italian buggest gunshops, asking about the amounts of issues they experienced with various brands like tikka, bergara, cz and some american brands and no one said bergara had more issues than others. I have heard of a single issue with a bergara crest that wouldn't group and nothing else. They are generally regarded as well built, accurate and reliable for a 1000 dollar rifle from the 15 or so gunshop owners i asked to. So i don't know.. i even thought that that maybe some guys, who use mostly tikka actions as far as i understood, maybe have some interests to publicly bash a competitor brand.. it wouldn't be the first time I see it

 

[ssimo]

Well, Brits appreciate fine quality and workmanship, so this doesn’t surprise me. Americans just love “fancy” junk.

Someone even said that these same custom builders still works on newer priduction remingtons and refuse to work on bergaras. I know europeans have this weird appeal for look over function, i live here, there is a huge bias towards that in every aspect of life. But if you look at a current production remington, i mean..

 

[SC HUNTER]

I can only attest to what I've seen and shot myself. I have owned 4 different bergara rifles and have shot 2 others I didn't personally own. Every one has been accurate and as dependable as I could ask from a rifle. I sold my 30-06 and 7mm mag ridge because I had no need for them. My 6.5 CM and 308 are both more accurate than I am with the 6.5 being hunted 99% of the time. My best friend has a 308 and my brother a 6.5 cm and both are very accurate. I don't expect custom rifle accuracy and quality from a factory gun but the 6.5 I own will shoot with the custom 260 that's in the safe.

 

[Deleted member 8-15-23]

Get his opion on Christenson arms. Lol

 

[SC HUNTER]

Get his opion on Christenson arms. Lol

Can attest to this as well. I'd choose 3 bergaras over 1 Christensen. I owned 1 for a short short (think troll at the chocolate factory short) length of time. It got sold as a POS that I couldn't get to shoot.

 

[Mojave]

I actually hate Christensen just junk

 

[Deleted member 8-15-23]

My nephew has a custum Tikka 6.5prc, sweet, Christensen 300prc is back at the factory 4 times, the bolt won't close. They told him to seat the factory pill deeper. Lol.

 

[ssimo]

I can only attest to what I've seen and shot myself. I have owned 4 different bergara rifles and have shot 2 others I didn't personally own. Every one has been accurate and as dependable as I could ask from a rifle. I sold my 30-06 and 7mm mag ridge because I had no need for them. My 6.5 CM and 308 are both more accurate than I am with the 6.5 being hunted 99% of the time. My best friend has a 308 and my brother a 6.5 cm and both are very accurate. I don't expect custom rifle accuracy and quality from a factory gun but the 6.5 I own will shoot with the custom 260 that's in the safe.

So either us, and basically everyone i talked with in person about these rifles, have been very, very very lucky or that guy has been very, very, very unlucky or what he is saying is BS. A sample of 4 can be enough to judge machining and fit and finish but not function. I should add that he never even tried the rifles, he just worked on them or refused to do so. Maybe there are so many bergaras sold that the reports on issues popped out more now than before or maybe their qc is suffering for the increased demand, probably a mix of the two. Also the expectancies for bergara were very high and they don't have a big name backing them up. If a sako ejects straight up and you have to install the scope tilted to avoid jams it's just a little design flaws but it's still a great rifle, if a bergara has feeding issues it's because the whole production of the company is trash. I understand that with a bergara you are more likely to get a lemon, especially these days, than with a tikka for example, but if you get a rifle that functions well as far as reliability and accuracy, is it still a durable and well made rifle or it's a bad rifle that happens to shoot well but can brake or have issues anytime? That's my question basically

 

[ResearchinStuff]

Google "bergarbage", that's normally a phrase that comes up in threads about lousy Bergeras - there have been multiple.

Since they've been mentioned, CA also makes a lot of lemons, lately its been lots of stories about prcs that can't safely fire factory ammo.

 

[ssimo]

Google "bergarbage", that's normally a phrase that comes up in threads about lousy Bergeras - there have been multiple.

Since they've been mentioned, CA also makes a lot of lemons, lately its been lots of stories about prcs that can't safely fire factory ammo.

I have seen the threads, i also talked about it above! There can be many reasons for this, i am trying to understand why

 

[Macintosh]

Inconsistency in supply chain and manufacturing creates just that—inconsistency. Especially if there is more than one manufacturing facility. Seems entirely normal to me in a case like that to get mostly decent products, and every once in a while you get a concentrated group of bad products. It usually does not manifest as bad product evenly sprinkled into the mix, its one bad production run or one lot of material, and that batch has a very high rate of shit products. Combine that with getting a couple in a row from a bad batch, and I cant say I’d do different—at that point it’s never going to get to a place where the smith is proud to send it out for anything resembling a reasonable price to a guy who bought that rifle. So if you arent desperate for work, why bother? It doesnt mean every bergara is shit, it just means there is consistent inconsistency and if you get one you are rolling the dice. In this case it would be normal for most batches to function normally, but that one batch has pretty consistent problems, so unless you got one from that batch you are wondering what the fuss is about. But if you are the smith…well, where do you think all the problems wind up? I can think of a few brands like that where there are consistent problems, but also tons of happy customers—I dont think those two things are mutually exclusive.

 

[Macintosh]

Also—I have no idea if bergara or
Other makers function this way, but I know of at least 2 Euro brands that have a US distributor that does final finish, assembly and qc in the US, ie they are not importing finished products. So its POSSIBLE that the bergara in US was completed from parts in a different facility than those in Eu. I dont know if this is the case, I just know of other brands that do this. So just be careful reading too much into it talking to people from various continents.

 

[ssimo]

Inconsistency in supply chain and manufacturing creates just that—inconsistency. Especially if there is more than one manufacturing facility. Seems entirely normal to me in a case like that to get mostly decent products, and every once in a while you get a concentrated group of bad products. It usually does not manifest as bad product evenly sprinkled into the mix, its one bad production run or one lot of material, and that batch has a very high rate of shit products. Combine that with getting a couple in a row from a bad batch, and I cant say I’d do different—at that point it’s never going to get to a place where the smith is proud to send it out for anything resembling a reasonable price to a guy who bought that rifle. So if you arent desperate for work, why bother? It doesnt mean every bergara is shit, it just means there is consistent inconsistency and if you get one you are rolling the dice. In this case it would be normal for most batches to function normally, but that one batch has pretty consistent problems, so unless you got one from that batch you are wondering what the fuss is about. But if you are the smith…well, where do you think all the problems wind up? I can think of a few brands like that where there are consistent problems, but also tons of happy customers—I dont think those two things are mutually exclusive.

This is interesting. Thanks for the explainations. Which brands are you referring to? I have had many issues with czs for example but i am well aware my sample is too small to get to any conclusion.