I've talked to cliff on several occassions, real up front, set some realistic expectations. We've been doing drop camps in NM for the past 3 seasons and will be going with them if we are not successful in the draw. Have not been with him but look forward too if the opportunity presents its self. Also, check out the jay Scott podcast, and search for flat top wilderness, he has interviewed cliff gray on several occasions, gives you some insight and dialogue on what he has to offer.