They survived with wolves long before man destroyed all of their winter range and forced them into non- native areas. Now they are in the same small box with apex predators. Without human intervention they stand little chance.
I'm saying that was way way back then this is now 2020 and it no longer self regulates and can not return when it could. Man now picks the survivers it's really that simple.
You’re suggesting that the wolves would eat the ungulates out of existence?
Man was there for ten of thousands of years with them. Just not our culture.
Now that they are confined to the same areas? Absolutely feasible. The environmentalists like to twist facts surrounding herd numbers, specifically in yellowstone, but it's more than coincidental that the herd numbers started dropping in conjunction with wolf introduction. Show us an area with a wolf population where ungulates are thriving. Moose in Yellowstone are few and far between anymore, they stand no chance. Same in MN and UP of MI.
My (pretty weak) understanding of predator - prey dynamics is that they tend to be cyclical. Wolves show up and eat a lot of elk. Elk dwindle (or move out), which means the wolves have a lot less to eat and dwindle in turn. Then the cycle repeats.
But that is forever changed. It used to be a cycle. Prey populations rose which allowed predator populations to rise which lowered the prey populations which lowered the predator populations which again allowed the prey populations to rise. Repeat. Now with humans prey populations rise allowing predator populations to rise which lowers prey populations which causes predator populations to start preying on livestock and pets which sustains the predator populations which make it very difficult for prey populations to increase.
I buy that as a possible hypothesis. But is this actually documented? How confident are you of this theory? I mean, if wolves switch to livestock, presumably that is a respite for the ungulates that allows them to recover - stable equilibrium reached. Eating a cow or sheep means not eating an elk or deer, after all.
They don't stop eating deer and elk. The livestock just allows for an over carrying capacity of predators. It won't give the deer and elk a respite. It will just allow more predators to remain on the landscape.
I appreciate you and others sharing their knowledge on this. I remain skeptical that ungulates would be entirely wiped out but, as I said, I grant it as a plausible hypothesis. I'll read around and keep an open mind. I don't take any man's word for it (nor should anyone take mine), but I do listen to others and continue to learn.
I'm not saying that the deer and elk would be completely wiped out. But the population would be a shell of its former self.
That strikes me as much more plausible. How much do you suspect they would be reduced, in the long run? 50% reduced? 90% reduced? I have no idea of course.
Well the Yellowstone herd went from around 19,000 to around 1,500.
That's quite a drop. I wonder if they've rebounded at all. Supposedly they were around 7k in Yellowstone area last year, lower this year, supposedly due to winter kill (from google around a bit; not sure how counts were conducted). Certainly well below 19k.
You have received numerous first hand replies from those who
