How much can i expect handloading to change the accuracy with a given bullet? And what are the performance of the average factory rifle with a variety

[ssimo]

Hi guys, i have a couple questions.
1) handloading: can a proper load development turn a 2 MOA group into a sub MOA one using a given projectile? For example, let's pretend a rifle is shooting hornady precision hunter with a eld-x bullet 2 MOA. If i take my time developing a handload, is it reasonable to expect that i will be able to achieve sub-MOA or even sub-half-MOA accuracy with a load using the same eld-x ball but with a different primer/powder/case/depth? I have a rifle which is capable of sub-Moa accuracy but not with the projectile i want to use hunting, that's why i am asking. I admit my total ignorance in the hanoading world.
2) most rifle have quite a bit of difference in accuracy with factory ammo they like and factory ammo they dislike. In my experience, for example, if a try 10 factory loads with a factory rifle, two or three will be shot very well (0.3-1 MOA), two or three very bad (3 MOA or slightly more) and the others are between 1.5 and 2.5 MOA. I am talking about hunting bullets. This is my experience with the rifles i know very well (i had 6 or 7 i got to know very well cause they have been or still are my hunting guns). Does this reflects your experience, too? If no, what is your experience in this regard?

Ciao a tutti amici
Simone

 

[Pony Soldier]

There are a lot of variables in that request. I shot a box of Winchester 175 - 284. The right to left variable was about .5-1.0 in. However the verticle string was 2"-8". Once I started reloading the same rifle ran from same hole to 3/8 ". That was in 1981. Still the same now.

 

[ssimo]

There are a lot of variables in that request. I shot a box of Winchester 175 - 284. The right to left variable was about .5-1.0 in. However the verticle string was 2"-8". Once I started reloading the same rifle ran from same hole to 3/8 ". That was in 1981. Still the same now.

So the vertical stringing is the thing you can work on because it will probably get better with more consistent velocities or different powder charges? This makes sense

 

[grfox92]

I am currently learning and working through this problem. My .308 shoots good enough to hunt with, but I'm not happy with a 1.5" gun. So I am reloading and trying different bullets and seating depth. The problem is that bullets are very expensive. So is powder. Guys talk about trying 10 different bullets to find what works, I don't have $500 to $700 laying around to buy a bunch of options so it's very slow going.

On top of that, much like the question you are asking, I have no idea if the gun will ever shoot better or if it's just a lemon. So I buy a box of bullets when I can. Now I'm on to changing powders too. I wish there was an easy button. Some will say that there is and its to buy a Tikka. I'm considering it.

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[theddguide]

I've chronoed and compared accuracy with various factory loads in my rifles. Bottom line is this: consistent factory ammo isn't easily found. I've shot Hornady precision hunter in a couple guns and yes it's accurate but the speeds in one box may vary greatly compared to the next box. My handloads will always be consistent and that alone gives me confidence in my setup.

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[Pony Soldier]

I was lucky. I bought a reloading book (Speer) and later Hodgden. Picked my bullets and started with average and bumped it up by .1 powder increments to find what the gun liked.

Or find a friend with the same caliber and start where they are. Don't get too exotic early on.

Or read the 10,000 threads on this.

 

[GSPHUNTER]

Or read the 10,000 threads on this.

Best advice so far.

 

[KurtR]

I am currently learning and working through this problem. My .308 shoots good enough to hunt with, but I'm not happy with a 1.5" gun. So I am reloading and trying different bullets and seating depth. The problem is that bullets are very expensive. So is powder. Guys talk about trying 10 different bullets to find what works, I don't have $500 to $700 laying around to buy a bunch of options so it's very slow going.

On top of that, much like the question you are asking, I have no idea if the gun will ever shoot better or if it's just a lemon. So I buy a box of bullets when I can. Now I'm on to changing powders too. I wish there was an easy button. Some will say that there is and its to buy a Tikka. I'm considering it.

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Hornady 168 eldm used to be a max with varget loaded to just off the lands and have not found a 308 yet that won’t shoot it well.

 

[TaperPin]

You might get lucky and turn a 2moa gun into a 1 moa with hand loads, but it will probably not get much better.

 

[ssimo]

I am currently learning and working through this problem. My .308 shoots good enough to hunt with, but I'm not happy with a 1.5" gun. So I am reloading and trying different bullets and seating depth. The problem is that bullets are very expensive. So is powder. Guys talk about trying 10 different bullets to find what works, I don't have $500 to $700 laying around to buy a bunch of options so it's very slow going.

On top of that, much like the question you are asking, I have no idea if the gun will ever shoot better or if it's just a lemon. So I buy a box of bullets when I can. Now I'm on to changing powders too. I wish there was an easy button. Some will say that there is and its to buy a Tikka. I'm considering it.

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Man
With custom and semicustom rifles costing thousands of dollars, the solution to every problem must be buying a Tikka ahah

You can get a lemon also buying a Tikka, of course.

 

[grfox92]

Hornady 168 eldm used to be a max with varget loaded to just off the lands and have not found a 308 yet that won’t shoot it well.

That's bad news for me, Because I've been through a box of 168gr eldm, on top of IMR4895. Do you think just switching to Varget will drastically change my groups over 4895?

I've tested seating depth all the way to the lands and back to book COAL and powder charges from book min to book max. Book COAL shot better then the below picture which is ten thousandths off the lands.

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[ssimo]

I've chronoed and compared accuracy with various factory loads in my rifles. Bottom line is this: consistent factory ammo isn't easily found. I've shot Hornady precision hunter in a couple guns and yes it's accurate but the speeds in one box may vary greatly compared to the next box. My handloads will always be consistent and that alone gives me confidence in my setup.

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If you use ammo boxes of the same batch this should not be an issue or maybe you mean that the velocity varies from round to round?

 

[ssimo]

You might get lucky and turn a 2moa gun into a 1 moa with hand loads, but it will probably not get much better.

The gun i am talking about shoots sub MOA with other loads, it's just that that other load doesn't shoot a very aerodynamic projectile so i want to make my rifle like a bullet that it doesn't like in factory loads. But maybe i am asking too much

 

[ssimo]

That's bad news for me, Because I've been through a box of 168gr eldm, on top of IMR4895. Do you think just switching to Varget will drastically change my groups over 4895?

I've tested seating depth all the way to the lands and back to book COAL and powder charges from book min to book max. Book COAL shot better then the below picture which is ten thousandths off the lands.

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Why so many shots for a group?

 

[PNWGATOR]

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[grfox92]

Man
With custom and semicustom rifles costing thousands of dollars, the solution to every problem must be buying a Tikka ahah

You can get a lemon also buying a Tikka, of course.

That's kind if why I'm hesitant to buy anything right now. I replaced my last
.308 with this current Ruger American Predator for 2 reasons. 1. Because everyone says the same thing about them, they might not be the best overall quality but they all shoot just about any factory ammo sub MOA. 2. Because I had exact cash in my pocket and there was one on the shelf, and reason 1.

Well I haven't veen able to get it to shoot better than 1.5 -2, and that's on its best days. And for the record, I shoot other rifles with much better groups and am confident it isn't me or my optic. The guns been torn down, de greased, re torqued with locktight, the works.

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[grfox92]

Why so many shots for a group?

Because Rokslide mafia says 10 round groups reveal a guns true MOA.

In all seriousness 3 shot groups weren't telling me what I needed to know. Too many possible variables.

Plus way better shooters, load developers, and rifleman on this forum all insist that you need to shoot 10 shot groups to see what your gun really shoots.

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[ssimo]

That's kind if why I'm hesitant to buy anything right now. I replaced my last
.308 with this current Ruger American Predator for 2 reasons. 1. Because everyone says the same thing about them, they might not be the best overall quality but they all shoot just about any factory ammo sub MOA. 2. Because I had exact cash in my pocket and there was one on the shelf, and reason 1.

Well I haven't veen able to get it to shoot better than 1.5 -2, and that's on its best days. And for the record, I shoot other rifles with much better groups and am confident it isn't me or my optic. The guns been torn down, de greased, re torqued with locktight, the works.

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Assuming you are shooting the rifle well, you can easiky find a gun that will shoot some ammo (also factory ones) sub MOA. I have never ever seen a gun that shoots "just about any factory ammo" sub MOA. I don't think such a rifle exists, especially for 400 dollars

 

[ssimo]

Because Rokslide mafia says 10 round groups reveal a guns true MOA.

In all seriousness 3 shot groups weren't telling me what I needed to know. Too many possible variables.

Plus way better shooters, load developers, and rifleman on this forum all insist that you need to shoot 10 shot groups to see what your gun really shoots.

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I don't agree at all with the 10 shots group thing. I use the rifle for hunting, i couldn't care less of 10 shots groups. I care about the first shot, on a could, fouled bore. Ideally i would shot one shot every 2 hours for 3 times, in reality i shot 3 or 4 3 shots groups to assess the accuracy of one load.

Of course with 10 shots groups the groups open up, that's nonsense to me.

And trust me, 3 shots groups, if you print 3 or 4 of them, give you PLENTY of data for any hunting application.

 

[grfox92]

I don't agree at all with the 10 shots group thing. I use the rifle for hunting, i couldn't care less of 10 shots groups. I care about the first shot, on a could, fouled bore. Ideally i would shot one shot every 2 hours for 3 times, in reality i shot 3 or 4 3 shots groups to assess the accuracy of one load.

Of course with 10 shots groups the groups open up, that's nonsense to me.

And trust me, 3 shots groups, if you print 3 or 4 of them, give you PLENTY of data for any hunting application.

Not trying to argue with you at all, but as inunderstand it and it makes sense to me....

If I shoot 3 round groups and wait 5 minutes between shots for a cold bore, and one group is a cloverleaf, the second has 2 tight and 1 outside, the next one has 3 not so tight, and the next one is 3 close to an inch. Then none of those groups is telling me the whole story about how my rifle will unpredictably shoot. If every 3 shot group doesn't look the same, then those groups don't mean anything.

So if I shoot 10 rounds, all with a cold ish bore into 1 group that shows me the worst case scenario for my rifles ability.

I was shooting 3 shot groups and none of them look consistently the same. So it was recommended to shoot larger groups. Minimum if 10 rounds to get a better idea of how the gun actually shoots.

One of my buddies also doesn't agree with 10 round groups and recommends shooting 3 round groups and overlaying the targets, which accomplishes the same thing as a 10 round group....I guess. Again, not trying to argue, just how I understand it. This is the first rifle I have ever reloaded for, so I'm still learning.

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