How often is 1 MOA "really" 1 MOA?

[Formidilosus]

I mean this with great respect…. Old school hunters, our fathers, uncles and grandfathers, who’ve been in the woods for 5-6+ decades are great resources on woodsmanship skills. And those skills are tremendously valuable! But in my experience they also have very limited understanding of ballistics, bullet construction, scope and rifle systems. Falling into the “I’ve done it this way for 50 years so it’s right” is a sure fire way to do things wrong.

The real issue is how many “hunters” take being totally ignorant of rifles, optics, bullets, and shooting skill as a point of pride.


The myth of the American rifleman is just that.

 

[SDHNTR]

The real issue is how many “hunters” take being totally ignorant of rifles, optics, bullets, and shooting skill as a point of pride.


The myth of the American rifleman is just that.

Not wrong, but I’ll also offer a counterpoint. I take a ton of guys hunting. A lot of them new. I lease a huge free range ranch for wild pigs. These are wild pigs in steep mountains, broken terrain, rough country. The animals never stay still long. No food plots, no feeders. Most shots are 300 or less, probably most often 1-200.

A lot of the guys I’ve taken are former LE and Mil and are excellent tactical marksman. They can quote ballistic data at a high level, off memory. Then they blow it several times because they can’t get all their chit together, get on the animal in time and execute a good shot quickly. Too much fiddling around.

Then there’s Fudd who just bought his ammo at Walmart on the way into the field. But damn that dude can get that old gun to his shoulder and whack a critter fast. He’s spent his lifetime on deer drives in the eastern hardwoods. He don’t know a damn thing about ballistics, doesn’t care. Bullets are bullets, but he’s spent a lifetime getting on target fast and making a “good enough” shot. He’s lethal, in his own way. He’s still a rifleman! Just a different skill set.

Everything is relative.

Now give me a guy who can do both, and I’ve said it before, he’s an assassin.

 

[Formidilosus]

A lot of the guys I’ve taken are former LE and Mil and are excellent tactical marksman. They can quote ballistic data at a high level, off memory. Then they blow it several times because they can’t get all their chit together, get on the animal in time and execute a good shot quickly. Too much fiddling around.

The military, regardless of “level” is by and large abysmal at shooting skill.


To be clear, I am not saying or speaking to laying prone and shooting what amounts to benchrest at long range. I’m talking about killing on demand and short to medium ranges.

Then there’s Fudd who just bought his ammo at Walmart on the way into the field. But damn that dude can get that old gun to his shoulder and whack a critter fast. He’s spent his lifetime on deer drives in the eastern hardwoods. He don’t know a damn thing about ballistics, doesn’t care. Bullets are bullets, but he’s spent a lifetime getting on target fast and making a “good enough” shot. He’s lethal, in his own way. He’s still a rifleman! Just a different skill set.

I haven’t seen that. Just like with the military it is a rare hunter that is actually skilled. By and large they suck too.

Everything is relative.

Very true.

My experience is that the myth of the military being good at shooting, and good ol’boys being good at killing are both false.

Someone being military, even a sniper, so they’re good at shooting, is objectify not true.

Also-

“Beware the man with one gun, he knows how to use it” is just as false. More like “beware the man with one gun, he doesn’t know much about anything, but will tell you all about it”.

In my experience hunting the country the vast majority of “woodsmen” wound and miss just as many animals as everyone else. Yes, there are exceptions, but generally those are only in a very narrow set of circumstances. I.E., they are only good at 30 yard running deer offhand, or 60-80 yard stand shooting, etc. I don’t know that I’ve actually ever met someone hunting or on a range that was a classical rifleman from 0-300 yards from standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, etc. To do that requires practice and by and large, hunters do not practice.

Now give me a guy who can do both, and I’ve said it before, he’s an assassin.

That is very true.

 

[SDHNTR]

The military, regardless of “level” is by and large abysmal at shooting skill.


To be clear, I am not saying or speaking to laying prone and shooting what amounts to benchrest at long range. I’m talking about killing on demand and short to medium ranges.





I haven’t seen that. Just like with the military it is a rare hunter that is actually skilled. By and large they suck too.





Very true.

My experience is that the myth of the military being good at shooting, and good ol’boys being good at killing are both false.

Someone being military, even a sniper, so they’re good at shooting, is objectify not true.

Also-

“Beware the man with one gun, he knows how to use it” is just as false. More like “beware the man with one gun, he doesn’t know much about anything, but will tell you all about it”.

In my experience hunting the country the vast majority of “woodsmen” wound and miss just as many animals as everyone else. Yes, there are exceptions, but generally those are only in a very narrow set of circumstances. I.E., they are only good at 30 yard running deer offhand, or 60-80 yard stand shooting, etc. I don’t know that I’ve actually ever met someone hunting or on a range that was a classical rifleman from 0-300 yards from standing, sitting, kneeling, prone, etc. To do that requires practice and by and large, hunters do not practice.






That is very

You may be right. The tac types I’ve taken out have an impressive knowledge base they can talk about, but I’ve seen little that has actually impressed me in terms of executing the shot.

With the Fudds, I’m thinking of two dudes in particular. I doubt they know a 30-06 and .308 shoot the same bullet, but damn inside of a couple hundred yards they can kill stuff! One is from Oklahoma and grew up pushing draws full of plum thickets. The other grew hunting with hounds in the hardwoods in Virginia. Zero technical knowledge, but handy with a rifle at short range. These Bubbas were also shooting critters before they could walk. Learning to shoot for them was like learning to throw a ball for most boys. It’s ingrained.

If I had to pick ONE skill of an effective shooter/hunter, it’s not precision marksmanship at long distance, it’s not intimate knowledge of ballistics. It is the ability to acquire the animal quickly, get on target with no fuss and an imperfect rest, if one at all, and execute the shot. That kills stuff. And yes, like anything else, it takes lots of practice.

 

[2-Stix]

Not wrong, but I’ll also offer a counterpoint. I take a ton of guys hunting. A lot of them new. I lease a huge free range ranch for wild pigs. These are wild pigs in steep mountains, broken terrain, rough country. The animals never stay still long. No food plots, no feeders. Most shots are 300 or less, probably most often 1-200.

A lot of the guys I’ve taken are former LE and Mil and are excellent tactical marksman. They can quote ballistic data at a high level, off memory. Then they blow it several times because they can’t get all their chit together, get on the animal in time and execute a good shot quickly. Too much fiddling around.

Then there’s Fudd who just bought his ammo at Walmart on the way into the field. But damn that dude can get that old gun to his shoulder and whack a critter fast. He’s spent his lifetime on deer drives in the eastern hardwoods. He don’t know a damn thing about ballistics, doesn’t care. Bullets are bullets, but he’s spent a lifetime getting on target fast and making a “good enough” shot. He’s lethal, in his own way. He’s still a rifleman! Just a different skill set.

Everything is relative.

Now give me a guy who can do both, and I’ve said it before, he’s an assassin.

This is the experience I have had with my family. Shoots get out past 250 and their equipment and system starts to show with "hold at the top of the back"...but they know their stuff. They use aggressiveness covering territory, fitness and knowledge of animals to produce success vs the current advancements in hunting the last 10-15 years. If they added a range finder, spotting scope and dials it would make them lethal. But in their heads they killed every thing they want. They are the 10% that always tag out. Its hard to argue that, but I do understand both sides of the coin.

 

[Formidilosus]

If I had to pick ONE skill of an effective shooter/hunter, it’s not precision marksmanship at long distance, it’s not intimate knowledge of ballistics. It is the ability to acquire the animal quickly, get on target with no fuss and an imperfect rest, if one at all, and execute the shot. That kills stuff. And yes, like anything else, it takes lots of practice.

100%.

But, I suppose we should all be glad in a way that hunters aren’t that. If the majority were real aggressive riflemen there would be a lot more animals killed.

 

[SDHNTR]

100%.

But, I suppose we should all be glad in a way that hunters aren’t that. If the majority were real aggressive riflemen there would be a lot more animals killed.

Yep. It also doesn’t take 1/2 moa!

A buddy just sent me pics from a hunting trip 30 years ago. I was successful with a savage 99 in .300 sav (all I had at the time), a Carhart jacket, Wrangle blue jeans and real Danner boots (remember those?). I killed piles of stuff with that gun as a teenager and young adult and never used anything more than my knee or a log or a rock and green/yellow box ammo! I really don’t even know what kind of groups it shoots.

I need to go dig that thing out and load up some copper.

 

[Formidilosus]

Yep. It also doesn’t take 1/2 moa!

A buddy just sent me pics from a hunting trip 30 years ago. I was successful with a savage 99 in .300 sav (all I had at the time), a Carhart jacket, Wrangle blue jeans and real Danner boots (remember those?). I killed piles of stuff with that gun as a teenager and young adult and never used anything more than my knee or a log or a rock and green/yellow box ammo! I really don’t even know what kind of groups it shoots.

I need to go dig that thing out and load up some copper.

That’s a cool rifle.

 

[Macintosh]

…My question is this...when we talk about a 1 MOA rifle or a 1/2 MOA rifle, is that EVERY group? Most groups? Some groups? What the rifle is capable of, does every time, or an average?

Let's say you have a rifle and ammo combo you expect to shoot 1 MOA. If you're at the range shooting off a bipod and a rear bag, and you shoot 10 three-shot groups at 100 yards with a couple minutes cooling between each. Would you expect EVERY group to be 1 MOA? Half of them? More / less?

To me, a 1moa rifle means that the rifle/scope system itself is capable of putting every shot into an inch at 100 yards. 99out of a hundred?? to me it means as close to 100% as its possible to be so that you can essentially rule out the possibility of the rifle itself EVER being the reason for a miss on a 1moa or larger target. So yes, to call a rifle a 1moa rifle I expect it to put all 30 rounds (in the hypothetical example) into the same inch. Dont care if its 1, 30-round group, or 30, 1-inch dots, every shot overlays into a 1” circle around a single point of aim.

Based on the number of single 3-round groups I see, I dont think thats how most people use the term. Edit: It’s DEFINITELY not how manufacturers use the term when they offer a 1-moa guarantee that is met if they can provide one or two 3-round groups under an inch. That is a relatively worthless marketing gimmick to me.

 

[2-Stix]

We need a thread of "Top 10 lies in modern hunting" from the FNG to 75 year old Fudd.

It would go something like this...

1. There is no 1" MOA...3 shot groups dont count...take a 30 shot sample.
2. Your lifetime warrantee scope from the main 2 manufactures will not hold zero...look at military scopes.
3. Hunting bullets don't work best...show data
4. RF binos are better
5. You dont need gunwerks rifle
6....Formidilosus knows best
7...etc...

This is funny not funny. I been getting my ducks in a row the last 2 months more than I ever thought I would. Getting memes about me, slapped up and wedggies....all brought to you by Rokslide. Ha.

 

[WeiserBucks]

This is funny not funny. I been getting my ducks in a row the last 2 months more than I ever thought I would. Getting memes about me, slapped up and wedggies....all brought to you by Rokslide. Ha.

Hopefully you're gaining from the various discussions here, some of us are a little abrasive but it's mostly great information intended to help.

 

[PNWGATOR]

We need a thread of "Top 10 lies in modern hunting" from the FNG to 75 year old Fudd.

It would go something like this...

1. There is no 1" MOA...3 shot groups dont count...take a 30 shot sample.
2. Your lifetime warrantee scope from the main 2 manufactures will not hold zero...look at military scopes.
3. Hunting bullets don't work best...show data
4. RF binos are better
5. You dont need gunwerks rifle
6....Formidilosus knows best
7...etc...

This is funny not funny. I been getting my ducks in a row the last 2 months more than I ever thought I would. Getting memes about me, slapped up and wedggies....all brought to you by Rokslide. Ha.

Post less.

Read more.

 

[2-Stix]

Im serious...the info I have found on this site...a lot of it is not run of the mill when it comes to the more technical aspects. Its an incredible resource when I run into issues they get solved often on this site with reading and posting.

There should be a general top 10 list or more. I could have saved a lot of people a lot of time. I been chasing a 1" zero for 3 years until I learned what I learned the last 2 months on groups sample size and scopes alone.

 

[SDHNTR]

We need a thread of "Top 10 lies in modern hunting" from the FNG to 75 year old Fudd.

It would go something like this...

1. There is no 1" MOA...3 shot groups dont count...take a 30 shot sample.
2. Your lifetime warrantee scope from the main 2 manufactures will not hold zero...look at military scopes.
3. Hunting bullets don't work best...show data
4. RF binos are better
5. You dont need gunwerks rifle
6....Formidilosus knows best
7...etc...

This is funny not funny. I been getting my ducks in a row the last 2 months more than I ever thought I would. Getting memes about me, slapped up and wedggies....all brought to you by Rokslide. Ha.

You’ve been a good sport!

 

[Harvey_NW]

Im serious...the info I have found on this site...a lot of it is not run of the mill when it comes to the more technical aspects. Its an incredible resource when I run into issues they get solved often on this site with reading and posting.

There should be a general top 10 list or more. I could have saved a lot of people a lot of time. I been chasing a 1" zero for 3 years until I learned what I learned the last 2 months on groups sample size and scopes alone.

Only those open to interpretation and constructive criticism will actually learn. This place is a wealth of knowledge and I'm in the same boat, except I've been geeking out on it for years now instead of months. I learned quickly that some of my buddies were interested in learning as well, some were a little more steadfast but over the course of time seeing what I was doing piqued their interest and they started to be more receptive, and others could care less and continue their traditional procedures. What's important is to try it, and apply it. It takes some investment, but it will prove itself, and has made me a much more proficient shooter.

 

[2-Stix]

Only those open to interpretation and constructive criticism will actually learn. This place is a wealth of knowledge and I'm in the same boat, except I've been geeking out on it for years now instead of months. I learned quickly that some of my buddies were interested in learning as well, some were a little more steadfast but over the course of time seeing what I was doing piqued their interest and they started to be more receptive, and others could care less and continue their traditional procedures. What's important is to try it, and apply it. It takes some investment, but it will prove itself, and has made me a much more proficient shooter.

I typically read on average 2-3 hours a night the last 3 years. I just recently found the group sample size, scope manufactures and bullet construction threads the last 2 months. Very different from what I was taught and read in the past.

I have a 30 year history of heavy backpacking, fishing, rock climbing, mounteering and dirt bike riding. Just the last 5 years I jumped back into hunting as I gave up climbing and mounteering...to many near death experiences and suffering type 2 fun most trips. If I am going to work that hard, I want to come home with dinner.

Glad to be here.

 

[SDHNTR]

I just shot this 10 round group with my .300 prc. I dunno what the moa is but I like it.

 

[Formidilosus]

I just shot this 10 round group with my .300 prc. I dunno what the moa is but I like it.

That’s what a zero looks like.

 

[SDHNTR]

Haha, then the mirage started up and it became this, still acceptable .

 

[SDHNTR]

And it will essentially repeat somewhere in between those results every time. I wish all my guns were as cooperative.