How often is 1 MOA "really" 1 MOA?

[WeiserBucks]

Most bullets dont open below 1,800 fps to properly work.

"Most" being the key word, there's plenty that do.

 

[Shortschaf]

NOVEL:
It's probably not you. Most setups only shoot 1moa'ish, and no level of magic-marksmanship is going to suddenly make a 1moa gun shoot under 1/2moa. If you have seriously researched the subject, practiced a little, use a bipod with a solid rear bag, and don't use a 20 dollar scope, shooting "properly" is pretty easy to do. (remember that scope problems happen to the best, so keep your stuff mounted solid, and don't ever rule that out as a possible cause. All scopes can fail, and even expensive scopes can get bumped off zero).

If you are still uncertain, best thing you could do is to get behind a benchrest rifle that regularly shoots <0.2" groups. Once you shoot a couple of those, you will learn the gun or ammo is OFTEN the limiting factor and that trigger-pulling is the easy part.

I shoot 3 shot groups because I don't really care about what shots 4 and 5 do when I hardly ever need shot 3 in the real world. I've also found that if your gun will shoot 3 shot groups really small pretty (<1/2moa) consistently, then it will also do 5 shot groups the same way but a little bigger (that's statistics for you). So why waste the ammo.

So shoot however many shots you want. Because to be honest, most people just lie about how accurate their guns are anyway. But make no mistake, <1/2moa guns are a real thing, they're just not that common off-the-shelf with factory ammo in my experience.



And for the record, offhand shooting is a skill. But I like shooting small... so I don't shoot offhand haha.

 

[Antares]

"Most" being the key word, there's plenty that do.

Name some. Specifically those that are designed for 2800-3000 MV (i.e., not specialty subsonic bullets). I’m genuinely curious.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Name some. Specifically those that are designed for 2800-3000 MV (i.e., not specialty subsonic bullets). I’m genuinely curious.

Berger VLD Target
Berger VLD Hunting
Berger Hybrid Target
Berger OTM
Berger Classic Hunter
Hornady ELDM
Hornady SST
Nosler RDF
Most Nosler Ballistic Tips
Barnes Match Burners
Lapua Scenar
A few of the Sierra Match Kings

 

[Antares]

Berger VLD Target
Berger VLD Hunting
Berger Hybrid Target
Berger OTM
Berger Classic Hunter
Hornady ELDM
Hornady SST
Nosler RDF
Most Nosler Ballistic Tips
Barnes Match Burners
Lapua Scenar
A few of the Sierra Match Kings

What is the minimum velocity for full expansion on those bullets?

 

[WeiserBucks]

What is the minimum velocity for full expansion on those bullets?

They're all a little different, some 1500 some 16-1700. The Berger Target bullets and Lapua Scenar have a heavier jacket than some of the others and I draw the line at 1700 on those personally. Sierra MK has been the most erratic terminal performance for me and I've quit using them.

 

[Antares]

They're all a little different, some 1500 some 16-1700. The Berger Target bullets and Lapua Scenar have a heavier jacket than some of the others and I draw the line at 1700 on those personally. Sierra MK has been the most erratic terminal performance for me and I've quit using them.

Which ones consistently fully expand at 1500 fps?

 

[WeiserBucks]

Which ones consistently fully expand at 1500 fps?

VLD Hunting, ELDMs and Match Burners in my experience.

 

[2-Stix]

Most of those are not for hunting, and only begin to open at the stated velocities and need another 400 fps to open really enough for good wound channel, 800 to fully open. I hunt monos. One I have to in CA, but I use them out of state also and prefer them as they drive deep in my 7RM. 1800 FPS for Barnes TSX, TTSX or LRX to start to open, 2200.

 

[WeiserBucks]

Most of those are not for hunting, and only begin to open at the stated velocities and need another 400 fps to fully open.

Sounds like your experience has been different than mine. Use whatever you like and have confidence in.

 

[2-Stix]

Sure elk at 50-150 yards. Were not talking about that.

 

[WeiserBucks]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean? I was talking about various bullets killing big game at their minimum reliable velocity.

 

[2-Stix]

An ethical hunting bullet (not a target bullet) like a Barnes TSX needs 1800 fps to even remotely start to open, and 2000 is the recommended...that makes the 30-30 a hundred yard cartridge for deer.

The comment was made challenging 30-30 off hand can kill anything, and yes that is true, but very very close...my response was only that out to 100 yards there is just enough FPS to open the bullet and only a 1,000# of energy. Its an elk rifle to about 50 yards for ethical shots.

The 30-30 is for tight woods hunting back east...not western elk hunting.

 

[WeiserBucks]

The 30-30 is for tight woods hunting back east...not western elk hunting.

Agree.

 

[wind gypsy]

Sub MOA guarantees are a marketing schtick not a performance reality. Rifle shoots a sub MOA 3 shot group, manufacturer is off the hook in their eyes. We’ve been duped by the value of a single 3 shot group for too long.

[Edit to elaborate on OP: I'd put very little value in what someone calls a 1/2 MOA or 1 MOA rifle. In most cases it seems to be someone who shot a single or occasional group at that size. The Hornady sample size podcast was already linked here but I think the thread on it with people's input is a good read related to your topic. https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/your-groups-are-too-small.290821/

Most of us get sucked into finding the ammo that shoots the tightest groups off the bench because that process usually results in you shooting the tightest groups possible and we don't have to acknowledge reality of our true abilities in field positions. If you're really focused on working towards what is possible, your abilities from field positions are going to make a much bigger difference than shooting 100's of rounds from the bench to find a load that shoots 1.25 MOA 10 Shot groups vs 1.5 MOA groups. A good thread on that is here: https://rokslide.com/forums/threads...ice-posts-and-rifle-practice-shooting.165291/ and performing things like the kraft drill which is talked about a lot here https://rokslide.com/forums/threads/what-did-you-do-at-the-range-today.254974/ ]

 

[svivian]

An ethical hunting bullet (not a target bullet) like a Barnes TSX needs 1800 fps to even remotely start to open, and 2000 is the recommended...that makes the 30-30 a hundred yard cartridge for deer.

The comment was made challenging 30-30 off hand can kill anything, and yes that is true, but very very close...my response was only that out to 100 yards there is just enough FPS to open the bullet and only a 1,000# of energy. Its an elk rifle to about 50 yards for ethical shots.

The 30-30 is for tight woods hunting back east...not western elk hunting.

"Ethical hunting bullet" why cant some target bullets like an ELDM be ethical?

 

[PNWGATOR]

"Ethical hunting bullet" why cant some target bullets like an ELDM be ethical?

I’m interested in this too.

 

[Grundy53]

An ethical hunting bullet (not a target bullet) like a Barnes TSX needs 1800 fps to even remotely start to open, and 2000 is the recommended...that makes the 30-30 a hundred yard cartridge for deer.

The comment was made challenging 30-30 off hand can kill anything, and yes that is true, but very very close...my response was only that out to 100 yards there is just enough FPS to open the bullet and only a 1,000# of energy. Its an elk rifle to about 50 yards for ethical shots.

The 30-30 is for tight woods hunting back east...not western elk hunting.

How is a match bullet unethical?
Also, monos need more speed than traditional bullets so they would be my last choice in a 30-30.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

 

[Grundy53]

The 30-30 is for tight woods hunting back east...not western elk hunting.

There are a lot of dead elk from the first half of the last century that would disagree.

Sent from my SM-S901U using Tapatalk

 

[PathFinder]

To get back on track...
Establishing the "group size" a rifle/optic/ammo combination is capable of is a matter of establishing mechanical process capability. The same thing is done in manufacturing processes. It's a matter of answering the question of exactly what level of precision a process is capable of.
Mathematically, this is approached by measuring variation from the mean. For rifles, the mean is the center of the group (and ideally the point of aim). Each shot is then measured as a distance from the center, with positive/negative x-y axes. From those distances, a standard deviation is calculated.
Six sigma is the general standard for establishing process capability. Each "sigma" is one standard deviation. Six sigma spans across the entire diameter of the group, so 3 sigma each way from the center in every direction.
These rules assume a "normal" distribution, which is a distribution that matches a standard bell curve. For rifles, that would mean nothing odd is going on with the optic, wind, or mechanical systems. Assuming there's no odd variables at play, this will result in a more or less perfectly round, circular group.
If the distribution is normal and the process is stable: 68% of the data fall within 1 standard deviation in any direction, 95% fall within 2 standard deviations in any direction, and 99.7% fall within 3 standard deviations in any direction.
A statistically verifiable 1 MOA rifle would be a rifle that put 99.7% of its rounds in a 1 MOA circle. 68% of its rounds would land in a much smaller circle, which is why so many 1 MOA rifles are listed as significantly better by their owners.
This is where confidence intervals and sample size come in. The more samples in the data, the higher the confidence that the standard deviation of the sample actually reflects the entire population. Samples of less than ten have low confidence. Going over 30 doesn't provide much more confidence. To say what we all already know, the number of shots in a group matters. Three shots over MOA means the rifle definitely isn't an MOA rifle, but three shots well under MOA doesn't guarantee that it is an MOA rifle.