Insert Issue with Easton Axis arrows

[MADD BEAR]

I was having problems with broadhead alignment due to not being able to insert tune after having installed the HIT inserts with 2-part epoxy. Also the point end of my tuning shaft was beginning to chip and mushroom outward.

I personally did not like that my point was seated directly against the brittle end of the carbon arrow. All other arrows on the market you get metal to metal contact. And also, your points shank is not making full contact with the insert threads.

This is a video I made detailing the problem and how to fix it, if you believe this is a problem for you. I only hope to help other bow hunters with the structural integrity of their arrows.

https://youtu.be/1hz66f_kPKc


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[5MilesBack]

I've been using .204" ID arrows pretty much exclusively for the past 13+ years, and have never seen any alignment issues with BH's. That's one reason why I love that system so much.......perfect alignment with perfectly true spinning heads and arrows. I use HIT's in all of these Axis sized arrows with the heads directly against the end of the carbon shafts. The only ones I've had issues with any type of mushrooming has been GT Kinetic XT 200's. But even those were few and far between.

I've been interested in trying an Iron Will collar just for the sake of trying one, but I've never really seen a need to do that. You could try those or even try using a BAR if you're having issues with the ends.

 

[Billy Goat]

Did you square the ends of your shafts? Not just spin them on the little fine grinder wheel thing they supply but actually use something that squares the end of the shaft?

If you are getting chipping in spots it sounds like you might not have even surface bearing, the same thing will mess with broadhead alignment.

I don't shoot those shafts, just looking at it from the outside that's a problem I see.

 

[H80Hunter]

Yeah buy the G5 A.S.D. arrow squaring device. Thread a broadhead on. If it's not how you want it, you can work the carbon on the ASD which will change the blade orientation. Repeat as necessary. You will only be removing very small amounts of carbon so it will not noticeably change the arrow length or anything else.

 

[BRTreedogs]

I use a silver sharpie in the cut end.
Then I square them on the G5 tool until all the sharpie has been removed.

 

[MADD BEAR]

Yes all ends are squared. That is not the issue.


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[Brendan]

Put me in the camp of you have something else going on...

I run exclusively the HIT system (AXIS and BE Rampage), and have never once had to "insert tune" on many dozens of arrows, in fact it's a great system to show you which of your broadheads aren't true. Unless you somehow got a bad batch of inserts or arrows, the design pretty much ensures the insert is concentric with the shaft.

Only time I've ever mushroomed a shaft is repeated hard front hits like my grouse arrow, but I do run either a BAR or Iron Will Collar when hunting, and I do not epoxy them on - I need them removable.

 

[MADD BEAR]

The tool sets you depth incorrectly. All my broad heads and points have varying shank lengths. The tool sets your depth as if shank length is universal.

My gripe is that i want my threads to be screwed all the way in and have metal to metal contact. I said i fixed this issue I was having. This is meant to bring this issue to light. I made a fix for this in the video I posted.


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[OR Archer]

I’ve literally inserted thousands of these. If things are done correctly there shouldn’t be any broadhead that won’t seat flush. When you have issues of the broadheads not seating fully there’s a few issues that can cause this. One is the insert threads get epoxy in them. Two is the insert backing out when the tool is pulled out. Three is not laying the arrows flat to cure which can cause the insert to shift placement.

 

[Billy Goat]

The tool sets you depth incorrectly. All my broad heads and points have varying shank lengths. The tool sets your depth as if shank length is universal.

My gripe is that i want my threads to be screwed all the way in and have metal to metal contact. I said i fixed this issue I was having. This is meant to bring this issue to light. I made a fix for this in the video I posted.


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So you tighten the threads all the way down? The threads should be drawing the broadhead up tight to the shoulder of the arrow, wether or not that's the shaft, half-out, or just the flat of a regular insert. There should be a gap from the threads, if no gap, the broadhead can't be supported properly on the front of the shaft like it's supposed to be. I understand wanting more than 2-3 threads in the insert, but at some point more won't make it any stronger. I think that's diameter times 1.5 but I can't remember for certain.

 

[ncavi8tor]

I've been using the H.I.T. system with their epoxy for many years and have never had a broadhead alignment problem and I am OCD about my arrow builds. You have other issues.

NC

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[Brendan]

The tool sets you depth incorrectly. All my broad heads and points have varying shank lengths. The tool sets your depth as if shank length is universal.

My gripe is that i want my threads to be screwed all the way in and have metal to metal contact. I said i fixed this issue I was having. This is meant to bring this issue to light. I made a fix for this in the video I posted.


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So what happens when you switch to a different broadhead or field point and it doesn't seat correctly? What happens when you use a collar with your broadheads and not your field points?

The fact of the matter is thread engagement supports the broadhead or field point whether or not it is bottomed out in the insert.

I'm almost wondering if there's a prep issue with your arrow shafts - are you soaking them in Acetone or something that's attacking the composite?

Either that or not prepping the inside of the shaft before installing the insert, using bad batch of glue/epoxy, etc - and it slips over time.

 

[Beendare]

That hit system is great if you get an even layer of thick epoxy all the way around the insert when you slide it in.

Sorry 0P, but put me down as another guy that’s done dozens and dozens of these Axis with zero problems.

You do need to run the ends of these on a jig. The ends are not perfect right off the Saw.


This is just a crummy cell phone picture, if you looked at them through a microscope it really shows. Left shaft after the jig, right arrow just off the saw.

As Billygoat and others mentioned above, The Milling of the ends of these makes a huge difference in the way your broadheads seat tight against the shafts.

Depending on the Brodhead you sometimes have to put a little chamfer on the inside edge of the shaft.

I do mineFor the last 20 years or so on a homemade jig

 

[MADD BEAR]

Clearly stated that I do not want my broadheads seated directly against the bare end of the carbon. I added an iron will impact collar to reinforce the end and i direct bonded the point to the insert and then assemble.

Argue all you want but this method is far superior in strength and structural integrity.

You want the threads making full engagement with each other otherwise the force of impact is being transferred to these threads and makes it prone to stripping.

Keep discussing this. Go and take your axis arrow right now and feel how wobbly the point is right up until the point of contact with the carbon. It will be extremely loose and it is only the brittle carbon that seats it. You are essentially twisting the end of the carbon shaft clockwise on a micro level and that is what is giving your broad head/point its structual integrity. Not a fan of this engineering.

Prove to me how having carbon vs metal is better for being the driving force behing your broadhead.


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[Brendan]

Prove to me how having carbon vs metal is better for being the driving force behing your broadhead.

Prove to me how you're going to deal with different broadheads or field points and with / without collar where your method doesn't work because of different shank lengths. It seems strange to me that after all these years, all these people using this setup, you magically found an issue that nobody else has? Doesn't that seem strange to you?

I've had broadheads and field points seated right against "brittle carbon" using this setup for years and never once had an issue on an arrow that didn't really earn it like hitting a rock or a concrete wall. I've been using the same Axis Grouse arrow since 2016 that repeatedly gets shot into tree trunks and stumps that weights 510 grains and is going 280 fps. That one does have a BAR on the front, but still spins perfectly true.

 

[MADD BEAR]

Prove to me how you're going to deal with different broadheads or field points and with / without collar where your method doesn't work because of different shank lengths. It seems strange to me that after all these years, all these people using this setup, you magically found an issue that nobody else has? Doesn't that seem strange to you?

I've had broadheads and field points seated right against "brittle carbon" using this setup for years and never once had an issue on an arrow that didn't really earn it like hitting a rock or a concrete wall. I've been using the same Axis Grouse arrow since 2016 that repeatedly gets shot into tree trunks and stumps that weights 510 grains and is going 280 fps. That one does have a BAR on the front, but still spins perfectly true.

I only shoot one broadhead. I make a variety of different arrows for all my different hunts. This way I can tune one arrow, find what works, and replicate it with my method and make a hunting arrow. I do not swap out heads for field points.

I am not a 3d field archer. I hunt to get meat. If all you do is shoot target, i see no need to reinforce axis arrows. If you hunt you want the best arrow possible.

Yes maybe I did magically find an issue as you say. Don’t be so thick headed and condescending when presented with alternate possibilities to someone else’s issue. Your lovely grouse arrow doesn’t speak for every axis arrow that hits heavy bone.

A properly built axis arrow with an ironwill collar, tuned to perfection. Argue all you want, this is far superior


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[5MilesBack]

Clearly stated that I do not want my broadheads seated directly against the bare end of the carbon.

And that's fine, that's your choice and that's why IW came out with their collars........to seat against the arrow shaft and to also provide more structural integrity to the ends of the arrows. Does that make the arrows stronger? Most likely........but like I stated in my post above.......I haven't seen any need to go that far with it, as my arrows work perfectly fine without all that and are still very durable. And I shoot all kinds of stuff with them, and shoot 75lbs at almost 33" draw. I just haven't seen the need for all that extra stuff. If anything, I avoid it because that's just more stuff that has to spin true.

If I was experiencing mushroomed ends, I'd most likely be using the collars as well. But I just haven't seen much of that with all the arrows I've shot. In fact I have NEVER broken an arrow (tip or otherwise) just from hitting heavy bone. And I've put arrows through elk shoulder blades, through the humerus, and have even hit the dreaded knuckle dead on from only 17 yards without any damage to my arrows. This last season I busted a rib going in and busted a rib coming out on a bull moose, and then used that same arrow to shoot a sheep a month later.......just cleaned it up and put a new BH on it. That arrow is still good to go for this year......and all my BH's (fixed and mechanical) seat directly against the carbon.

Having said that......I do have some Axis arrows, but not all of them are Axis shafts. The majority of what I've shot over the years have been the same size (.204" ID) but not necessarily Axis.

 

[Billy Goat]

I'll say that you won't find a bit of difference in strength if you have 3 threads engaged versus 6. Yes an impact collar will be stronger than bare carbon.


I like having options. I'll carry two if not 3 different broadheads, just because I like trying different things, not to mention sometimes using blunts or other small game heads. I can't afford to practice with my broadheads all the time, I'd burn up several targets a year.

Glad you found something that works for you.

 

[Brendan]

I only shoot one broadhead. I make a variety of different arrows for all my different hunts. This way I can tune one arrow, find what works, and replicate it with my method and make a hunting arrow. I do not swap out heads for field points.

I am not a 3d field archer. I hunt to get meat. If all you do is shoot target, i see no need to reinforce axis arrows. If you hunt you want the best arrow possible.

Yes maybe I did magically find an issue as you say. Don’t be so thick headed and condescending when presented with alternate possibilities to someone else’s issue. Your lovely grouse arrow doesn’t speak for every axis arrow that hits heavy bone.

A properly built axis arrow with an ironwill collar, tuned to perfection. Argue all you want, this is far superior

Absolutely not "Far Superior". No practical benefit and in some cases inferior in my opinion because it has downsides. Remember, if you come out with a "Fix" and post a full video on it that people don't agree with, you should be prepared to get feedback on it. That doesn't make everyone else thick headed and condescending and you a saint...

My reasons: I am primarily a hunter. But, I routinely shoot multiple broadheads and I routinely practice with my hunting arrows. And, I'm not running a collar for most of my practice with my hunting arrows because over time you will damage the collar pulling them out of certain targets done repetitively.

If you build a setup the way you do, you're limiting your ability to switch and have any perceived benefits, and in some cases the head may no longer sit flush to the carbon. Second - I think you're applying a "fix" for something else going wrong.

If you want to do something, why not just install the HIT normally, then use an Iron Will collar without gluing it on, and run with it? Spins perfectly, gives you extra support where needed, removable, and allows you to switch broadheads...

I'd also suggest looking for some of the other potential issues people have been pointing out. If you're getting failures at a higher rate than everyone else - it's something else in your process.

 

[MADD BEAR]

And that's fine, that's your choice and that's why IW came out with their collars........to seat against the arrow shaft and to also provide more structural integrity to the ends of the arrows. Does that make the arrows stronger? Most likely........but like I stated in my post above.......I haven't seen any need to go that far with it, as my arrows work perfectly fine without all that and are still very durable. And I shoot all kinds of stuff with them, and shoot 75lbs at almost 33" draw. I just haven't seen the need for all that extra stuff. If anything, I avoid it because that's just more stuff that has to spin true.

If I was experiencing mushroomed ends, I'd most likely be using the collars as well. But I just haven't seen much of that with all the arrows I've shot. In fact I have NEVER broken an arrow (tip or otherwise) just from hitting heavy bone. And I've put arrows through shoulder blades, through the humerus, and have even hit the dreaded knuckle dead on from only 17 yards without any damage to my arrows. This last season I busted a rib going in and busted a rib coming out on a bull moose, and then used that same arrow to shoot a sheep a month later.......just cleaned it up and put a new BH on it. That arrow is still good to go for this year.

Yeah Easton axis are tough shafts. I had one blow out and that was enough for me to get into collars. I wish they sold these impact collars right from easton with their arrows, as I think they are necessary.

Maybe this is why Easton is moving towards a newer outsert system for their new 4mm axis arrows. Easton obviously knows that the HIT inserts require special shank lengths that is why they sell their special field points for them.

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