Kifarucast w/ Gillingham

[robby denning]

Robby -
Nice work on putting this post and links together. Appreciate it.

To the rest...
I've listened to this episode 3 times now. Good debate, for sure. Each"side" provided a strong points for their perspective. Kudos to Aron for trying to find a compromise! I have a lot to learn when it comes to archery. I used to rifle hunt with a .300. Fast and heavy. I watched the industry move toward 6.5 and related calibers. Its tends to be the leading cartridge in long range shooting matches. Interestingly, some of the leading shooters on the circuit opt for a heavier gun in "hunting" applications. But the 6.5 has certainly shown good performance in hunting scenarios - even on elk. Bullet technology, like arrows and broadheads, have come a long way in the last decade.

I have a 26" DL., which is obviously shorter than most. I'm always looking for ways to improve my arrow performance with a balance of speed and weight. My bow is set at 63#'s. I could certainly go higher without strain, but would it gain that much to go to 70#'s? I run 400gr. Axis arrows with a 100 grain fixed broadhead. With such short DL, the podcast makes one think about speed vs. weight. If I go with the higher FOC crowd, I have more significant drop at longer distances. At the moment, my sight is maxed out at 81 yards, but I'm shooting paper plate size groups at this distance. My furthest shot on an animal is 53 yards. I don't intend to shoot a big game animal at 81 yards -- not because of my ability, but because of my lack of confidence in the lethality of my arrow at that distance or the situation where something doesn't go "perfect". And, maybe more importantly, I've been able to make a closer stalk with time and patience. For me, shooting at longer distances makes 50-60yd. shots increasingly easy.

I certainly don't think I need to go with a "lighter" set-up. I just think a heavier FOC, or maybe finding a way to go "faster" deserves more consideration before going down that path. All good stuff to ponder.

Thanks, for indoor leagues this winter I went down a full turn on my Athens conviction, I believe it dropped 5 pounds. Now that I’m shooting outside again and I haven’t turned my bow back up, I noticed it cut 2 to 3 yards from my trajectory by losing that poundage. So at 60 yards, I have to set my slider to 62.5. To me trajectory still matters because I’ve sat on a lot of mule deer in their beds and haven’t always been able to get an accurate range on them due to cover, shadows etc.

That’s why I’m still shooting a lighter set up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ratbeetle]

What is the point to this statement? He thinks highly of the best tournament archers in the world. Much like people think highly of the best MLB, NBA and NFL players.

It may be because tournament archers have probably tried and tested everything out there that has a direct effect on accuracy. That knowledge will certainly help those who only hunt be more accurate, which will translate into more success and fewer lost animals.

Just that tournament guys aren't the end all, be all for eveything archery. There are plenty of people not competing who have valuable information to offer. Discounting those people comes off as arrogant.

His statement regarding long range rifle shooting and not caring about the opinion of a guy who has killed hundreds of people vs a comp shooter shows his bias.

 

[RosinBag]

I think I am understanding your point; a person who kills hundreds of people is as knowledgeable as a long range competition shooter. Everyone has a right to their opinion!

 

[307]

Just that tournament guys aren't the end all, be all for eveything archery. There are plenty of people not competing who have valuable information to offer. Discounting those people comes off as arrogant.

His statement regarding long range rifle shooting and not caring about the opinion of a guy who has killed hundreds of people vs a comp shooter shows his bias.

Just that tournament guys aren't the end all, be all for eveything archery. There are plenty of people not competing who have valuable information to offer. Discounting those people comes off as arrogant.

His statement regarding long range rifle shooting and not caring about the opinion of a guy who has killed hundreds of people vs a comp shooter shows his bias.

The main difference is that the guys who have competed have proof of their abilities in a verifiable and objective way. Others are just making claims in the internet... It's easy to claim to shoot 2"groups at 100 yards, it's quite a different thing to have to do it in a verifiable way...

I'm betting 9 times out of 10 the guys who compete at a high level are down the rabbit hole of archery much deeper than others, though there will certainly be exceptions.

 

[RosinBag]

There is no doubt there are ten times more people that are internet world champions with their bows based on what they post for how well they say they shoot.

There is one who always posts up one arrow at 100 or one field point and one broadhead at 100 side by side in the center of the dot. Then when they were seen shooting in person, they somehow couldn’t hit a thing. I wasn’t shocked by this at all.

I believe Cameron Haynes had a standing bet that if anyone wanted to go visit him in Oregon and shoot against him, he would give them his bow if they beat him. I don’t think he has given away a bow yet.

 

[Brendan]

There are a couple key differences with target archery as compared to hunting , and I think Tim minimizes these, and I kept thinking it during the podcast.

Momentum and penetration doesn't matter in target.

Structural integrity of an arrow doesn't matter in target.

Noise doesn't matter in target.

And, as high pressure as target can be, I don't think it compares to buck/bull fever when drawing on animal when you aren't warmed up, haven't drawn your bow in a week, aren't ready, didn't know it was coming, and you've got a screaming banshee of an animal staring you down...

 

[Ratbeetle]

I think I am understanding your point; a person who kills hundreds of people is as knowledgeable as a long range competition shooter. Everyone has a right to their opinion!

Yup. 3+6=9 but so does 4+5.

Edit: I just reread my post and realized that I said killing people! I meant killing animals! I'm not a psycho, I swear.

The main difference is that the guys who have competed have proof of their abilities in a verifiable and objective way. Others are just making claims in the internet... It's easy to claim to shoot 2"groups at 100 yards, it's quite a different thing to have to do it in a verifiable way...

I'm betting 9 times out of 10 the guys who compete at a high level are down the rabbit hole of archery much deeper than others, though there will certainly be exceptions.

I don't disagree at all. If I want to learn how to be accurate and tune a bow, those are the guys to talk to. I plan to watch Tim's videos and I'm sure I will learn a ton. That being said, target archery is not hunting and just because a guy can stack arrows at 100yds, that doesn't necessarily make him an authority on what works killing critters.

 

[RosinBag]

I think many people are missing the message in the Podcast. Your arrow set up is about 10% of the equation to killing animals. The lightest fastest arrow and the heaviest slowest arrow will all kill the animal if you can put it in the right spot. Just like either of those arrows won’t if you shoot them in the leg.

I see podcasts like this all the time where people know one person or think they do more than the other so they always side with that person. It’s a form of ass kissing. I know and have hunted with both Aron and Tim. Aron is one of the best hunters I know and I am not sure there is anyone more knowledgeable about arrow dynamics and than Tim. Tim is also a very accomplished tournament archer. Neither one of them said anything that is not true, not one thing. They both have opinions on what works for them based on their experience.

That’s it, two people with knowledge that are sharing it. It’s not an Aron is right and Tim is wrong or vice versa. It’s their perspectives based on experience.

 

[robby denning]

I think I am understanding your point; a person who kills hundreds of people is as knowledgeable as a long range competition shooter. Everyone has a right to their opinion!

He shoots people?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Ratbeetle]

He shoots people?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I know, I know...I just reread my post...I meant ANIMALS!!!!

 

[BigWoods]

I know, I know...I just reread my post...I meant ANIMALS!!!!

I just thought you comparing competition shooters with soldiers and didnt bat an eye.

 

[Ratbeetle]

I just thought you comparing competition shooters with soldiers and don't say anything eye.

I meant to paraphrase Tim when he was talking about not taking rifle shooting advice from a guy who has killed a bunch of "animals"...but I obviously screwed that up.

 

[wind gypsy]

I think many people are missing the message in the Podcast. Your arrow set up is about 10% of the equation to killing animals. The lightest fastest arrow and the heaviest slowest arrow will all kill the animal if you can put it in the right spot. Just like either of those arrows won’t if you shoot them in the leg.

I see podcasts like this all the time where people know one person or think they do more than the other so they always side with that person. It’s a form of ass kissing. I know and have hunted with both Aron and Tim. Aron is one of the best hunters I know and I am not sure there is anyone more knowledgeable about arrow dynamics and than Tim. Tim is also a very accomplished tournament archer. Neither one of them said anything that is not true, not one thing. They both have opinions on what works for them based on their experience.

That’s it, two people with knowledge that are sharing it. It’s not an Aron is right and Tim is wrong or vice versa. It’s their perspectives based on experience.

Interesting posts, I caught your name thrown out in the beginning of the podcast there too.

Curious question: what arrow weight and broadhead type would you recommend for an all around muley / elk setup for an average hunter with 28” draw pulling 65-70 lbs?

 

[Coastiehunter2]

Pretty sure he's shooting a bt mag for hunting

 

[RosinBag]

Ratbeetle I am glad you clarified that. I wasn’t sure what you were trying to say exactly.

 

[RosinBag]

Wind gypsy, it really depends on where you are hunting those elk and the regulations.

I hunt with 70#’s, shoot a 435 grain arrow and generally a mechanical broad head if the state allows it. I personally find fixed blades a bit temperamental once you cross the 280 FPS threshold. My set up shoots right at 292 and feels it is plenty for all my hunting needs.

 

[Ratbeetle]

Ratbeetle I am glad you clarified that. I wasn’t sure what you were trying to say exactly.

Apparently I wasn't either.

 

[Beendare]

There are a couple key differences with target archery as compared to hunting , and I think Tim minimizes these, and I kept thinking it during the podcast.

Momentum and penetration doesn't matter in target.

Structural integrity of an arrow doesn't matter in target.

Noise doesn't matter in target.

...

..
All good points. ^........And not to minimize Tims's accomplishments....the guy has walked the walk.

Funny story.....I did a DIY elk hunt with a pro years ago that had just won the IBO world championship the year before- phenomenal shooter [and all around good dude] He missed a bull at 30 yds my other ASA 3d buddy called in for him.

THERE IS a difference between hunting and pro Target 3D. If you have ever shot with these guys [no offense intended] they get upset if a target isn't perfectly broadside and in the clear.

So this bull came in very fast right on the trail he was on in the woods and he had to twist while kneeling to get off a quick shot before the bull was right on them- whiffed it.

Emphasizing Brendans point; hunting is a little different than standing on flat ground with all the time in the world to squeeze off a shot at a stationary target. [ full disclosure, I'm not trying to berate my friend...stuff happens, I've had a bull come in so quick I couldn't get drawn on him- same as a miss]

..

 

[PredatorX]

I bet Tim has gotten into a lot of bar fights.

Sent from my SM-N900V using Tapatalk

 

[HookUp]

I thought it was great! I love the way Tim talks but the guy is a stone cold foam killer instead of a stone cold animal killer like Synder.

My deciding factor is I listen to john Dudley and Nock On and he is a 280 max and go heavy guy. Shoots tons of mechanical's and piles up the animals. Way to many stories of guys not getting penetration or recovered animals from mechanical's for me to go lighter than 450-475. My experiences with arrows and heads is they fly best around 270-280. Not even tempted to build Gillingham arrow set ups.