moose with a muzzleloader

[wolfman]

Newbie here. It looks like I drew a muzzleloader moose tag for CO! Can't believe it! Anyway I don't own a muzzleloader currently. I have been going to buy one for a few years but just didn't. Well now I need to buy one. So I was wondering what the folks here recommend? Also any advice on what combination of powder and bullets to use would be much appreciated too. Thanks in advance!

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

If you prefer to hunt with a rifle or bow, I have heard that Colorado will exchange a moose muzzleloader tag for a rifle or archery tag. I read about someone who did that a couple years ago. I am not sure if that is true or not. From what I have heard that is only applicable to moose tags, because the moose tags are allocated by weapon type as each person is drawn (for example if everyone put in for archery tags one year, all the moose tags would be in the archery season that year). You would have to call Colorado Division of Wildlife to confirm that. The weapon type applied for does not affect your draw odds for moose in Colorado.

 

[robby denning]

You could have a hoot hunting moose with a muzzleloader and what a great memory you'll have if you get one that way.

Colorado requires full conical bullets (no sabots), 209 primers are OK, loose powder only. Definitely a 50 or a 54 cal. As this might be the only moose hunt, I'd probably lean toward a 50 caliber as it's more versatile for elk/deer later on.

I'd call Cecil at PRbullet.com (check his site out). He can give you a rifle recommendation and suggest bullets to match the twist (very very important!). 1 877 828 5535- tell him Robby sent you. He can be a little hard to catch in the shop, but is a very knowledgable muzz guy. Grouchy, ol' duffer, but very helpful.
Get started right away as muzzleloaders can be a project and take more time than rifles usually to get your load tuned. Get a gun shooting at 2"-3" at 100 and you'll be deadly on a big moose.

Enjoy a very rare opportunity to hunt Colorado moose and make sure and share with us your process. We'd love to hear about your gun and what you settle on. Very knowledgabl guy on our muzz thread, too. Name is Sabotloader and knows a ton about Colorado legal guns as he's in Idaho and laws are very similar.

 

[endorice]

What GMU did you get? I took my moose in GMU 28 a couple of years ago with blackpowder. I loved the hunt. The best part of this hunt (as with all my hunts) was all the pre-season scouting I did.

You need to experiment with powder/loads in order to determine what shoots best for your gun. I used a heavy Powerbelt 444 gr in my Knight Bighorn. I shot my moose at approximately 50 yards and he didn't make it 25 yards.

 

[Bambistew]

Id' second a Knight, but many have different opinions. I have a Disc Elite, and a Disc Extreme, love both of them. Lots of people shoot Thompson Center, but my experience is they don't shoot big heavy conicals very well. I'm sure someone will come to their defense now that I've called them out. I didn't buy into the hype of easy to clean, as I don't have any issues cleaning any of my rifles. Some people only have seconds to spare to clean a rifle I guess.

I like No Excuses bullets, big and heavy. Speed is not your friend with muzzys, like high powered rifles, ligher faster bullets tend to not penitrate as well. I have 3 muzzys and all I shoot are NE in the 460gr from deer to moose. With a 50cal 80-100gr of Blackhorn or 777 depending on rifle is more than enough, any more and its unlikely that you'll burn all the powder, and the extra pop you get isn't worth it IMO. You'll have to play around with charge weight. Also play around with primers, Blackhorn needs a full 209, while 777 shoots best with lighter primers designed for black powder, like Remington Klean bore or 777 primers. Klean Bore primers leave a greasy residue on the action/nipple so I rarely use them.

I would strongly recommend you not bother with balls, as the last moose I saw shot with them out of a .54 cal took 4 to the ribs before expiring. chit penetration, even at close range. 20-30 yards. I was less than impressed.

CO doesn't allow scopes, so I'd recommend getting a peep and a hooded fiber optic front sight. With a little practice you can hit the kill zone on a moose/elk a lot farther than you imagine. I know I shoot much better than with standard sights.

Good luck on your hunt!

 

[wolfman]

Wow guys thanks for all the info! Nice Moose Endorice! I hope I can be so lucky! I drew for Unit 6. I've got a line on a TC Omega Z .50 cal that has never been shot from a friend for $200. Has updated sights on it. Have another friend that has that rifle and he likes it and shoots powerbelts through it. But I too have seen the issues some guys have with conical bullets in T/Cs. Decisions decisions.....I will keep you guys posted. Thanks again for the info. Keep it coming I need all the help I can get!

 

[sabotloader]

Newbie here. It looks like I drew a muzzleloader moose tag for CO! Can't believe it! Anyway I don't own a muzzleloader currently. I have been going to buy one for a few years but just didn't. Well now I need to buy one. So I was wondering what the folks here recommend? Also any advice on what combination of powder and bullets to use would be much appreciated too. Thanks in advance!

First off and most important 'Congratulations" on the your drawing... What a very fine opportunity!

Rifle wise I have a couple thoughts on that and would add another thought about a possible projectile.

Please remember that I am totally biased, I need to say that right off the bat... There are three rifles and two calibers that I might suggest. First I would like to speak to caliber... 52 cal. or 50 cal. If I were hunting moose and elk almost exclusively I would no doubt choose a 52 cal. Knight DISC, Mountaineer, or Ultra-Lite. But if you are only hunting in Colorado, that would not be the best choice because of the full bore projectile rule. The big reason for the suggesting a 52 is the 1-26 bore twist of the rifle. This higher speed twist is great for the longer heavier bullets - provides an additional level of stabilization. But, because of Colorado rules, the 52 is probably not the best choice because of the lack of available of 52 cal. conicals. That pretty much drops you back to the 50 cal. rifle which is the more universal caliber available. The same rifles mentioned above all come with the more standard 1-28 twist rate which also somewhat limits you in the length of the projectile you can shoot. Projectiles need to be limited to 1" in length. In your case the 50 might be the best choice in the long run.

Rifles manufactures, I really am a fan of Knight either the Knight company offerings or the old Knight company. In the family of Knight's - the DISC Extreme, The Mountaineer, and the newest offering the Knight Ultra-Lite - really there are only small visible differences. But under the visible differences there are some tolerance differences that make the Mountaineer/Ultra-Lite rifles a possible better quality rifle. Of course there is a real price difference also.

This is an example of a Knight DISC Extreme set up for rifle hunting season hunting here in Idaho. This also just happens to be a 52 caliber that I use a lot.





The next set of pictures are of the Mountaineer rifle and it is a 50 caliber.





The last rifle is the new Knight Ultra-Lite..

This first picture shows the rifle equipped with a NECG peep sight for hunting Idaho's ML season. The NECG is mounted on Weaver style scope block. The sight is easily removed and a scope installed.



This picture shows the rifle with the scope installed...



One of the things that sets the Ultra-Lite apart from the others is of course the over all weight of the rifle and the next is the Kevlar - aluminum bedding block embedded in the stock...



Accuracy of these rifle is never a question once you have it shot and sighted in.

OK - thinking about projectiles you can use in Colorado. Your choices are some what limited to the:

Hornady FPB, a copper jacketed lead bullet-> http://www.hornady.com/store/50-Cal-300-gr-FPB/

Thor Bullets which are a all copper bullet and are an excellent bullet -> thorbullets.com (but I think they are having problems with the site right now)

Power Belt Bullets - a soft lead jacketed bullet (probably not one that I would choose) -> http://www.powerbeltbullets.com/

And finally Full Bore Lead Conicals - and probably the bullet I would choose for your Colorado moose or elk hunt. You have to very good sources of these bullets either No-Excuse bullets ->http://muzzleloading-bullets.com/ or Bull Shop Bullets -> email [email protected]

Dan makes an excellent high quality lead conical...



Please see the second post also - I have ran out of picture in this post so I am adding information in a second following post...

mike

 

[sabotloader]

Second Post

I personally and especially for moose would choose a Bull Shop .503/4-460 grain MT NEx. I should also mention these are 'slip-fit' conicals - no short starter needed, just push them down with your thumb and then your regular rifle rod.



Here is a ballistic sheet for the bullet shooting 90 grains of T7. Plenty of energy and they hit sooo hard



With all of this said... there is another rifle that if you can find a used one in good shape would also make a very good Colorado rifle. A White - they are a 1-24 twist and a conical shooting machine...





Or a White 504 Lightning





There are other White models that are also extremely effective...

Really hope some of this might be useful to you and your efforts...

mike

 

[wolfman]

Thanks Mike for the input! Lots to digest there. Looks like they are pretty proud of the Ultra-light but it looks like a great rifle. Looks like I need to do some shopping this weekend! Thanks again!

 

[sabotloader]

Thanks Mike for the input! Lots to digest there. Looks like they are pretty proud of the Ultra-light but it looks like a great rifle. Looks like I need to do some shopping this weekend! Thanks again!

They are expensive, either the Mountaineer of the ULite - shoot the DISC Extreme is not cheap - but do not go by the price Knight has posted. You can get them on line and even local major chains for a lot less money.

I think Sportsman's Warehouse has them for $750 - which still is not cheap but better than Knight.

One other I might suggest to you... Once you start shooting a ML - you will not believe how addictive it can become - especially if you are a hunter!

There a problem or can be a problem with some TC rifles that use a QLA on the end of the barrel. The problem really shows itself when shooting full bore conicals. Because the Power Belt has the plastic skirt much like a sabot - they shoot very well from a TC.

The QLA alignment problem is not a universal thing with the TC's, not all rifles are effected.

mike

 

[wolfman]

So how much of difference is there between a Bighorn and say a Mountaineer? That whole QLA thing has me a bit spooked about T/C rifles but my friends' offer is still pretty tempting.

 

[sabotloader]

So how much of difference is there between a Bighorn and say a Mountaineer? That whole QLA thing has me a bit spooked about T/C rifles but my friends' offer is still pretty tempting.

See if I can answer that objectively... Let me start with the difference between the Big Horn and the DISC Extreme first - they are basically the same rifle other than the Big Horn has an open breech and is considered a 'plunger gun'. Like the DISC the Big Horn can use all three ignition systems, #11, Musket Cap, and 209. If you were to go with the 209 I would suggest that you go with the FPJ (Red Plastic Jacket system). I feel it is a bit safer to use than the bare 209 primer.

This is a picture of a FPJ dropped in a Knight DISC



This picture shows the FPJ's after they have been shot and removed from the rifle.



This is a Knight MK-85 which is a fore runner to the Big Horn. It is also a 'plunger gun' and an open breech... These pictures show the breech area. The first picture shows the breech area open (hammer pulled back in the hunting position) and the second shows the breech area after the hammer has been tripped.





My problem with the MK-Wolverine-Big Horn series of rifles is the breech and the cap are exposed to the weather and debris that might fall in the breech. It really is not a MAJOR problem but a concern. It is possible rain/snow could contaminate the cap but would not be a problem with the FPJ.

I also think the DISC is more versatile and the things that you could do with it in other hunting situations.

Everything still applies to the Big Horn vs. the Mountaineer other than the Mountaineer the tolerances of the bore and the rifle are held to a much tighter standard more like a what you would expect with a modern rifle.

Seriously if you are expecting this one adventure to be about all you might do with a muzzleloader the Big Horn would be an excellent rifle, but if you were to get a bit hooked to a ML and were to hunt other places than Colorado of the Pacific Northwest - the options available with a DISC or Mountaineer would be more valuable.

This picture shows the basic view of what a MK-Wolverine or a Big Horn might look like



Again - hope this information might help...

mike

 

[wolfman]

So sounds like you would prefer the DISC over the Bighorn then. Doesn't look like a big price difference between the two. I do plan to hunt other game with the ML after this so I would like to get one that will do the job and get something I won't be totally disappointed in. I also don't want to or can spent a whole lot of time trying to get something dialed in that I may never get dialed in. Mike you are a treasure trove of info. Thanks!

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

I'd also highly recommend the Knight DISC Extreme as one of the best multi state muzzleloaders. It also has a western conversion kit available for hunting the more restrictive states like Oregon and Idaho. My DISC Extreme shoots 1" groups with 460 grain No Excuses bullets (scoped rifle) and Blackhorn 209 powder.

I would HIGHLY recommend using Blackhorn 209 powder as a newcomer to muzzleloading. It leaves very low residue between shots and is one of the most forgiving and consistent powders available. Keeping your bore and breech condition repeatable shot to shot is critical with muzzleloader reliability and accuracy. One of the best primers when shooting Blackhorn 209 are the Fiocchi 209 primers.

Buy a 50 caliber rifle, I think you will be glad you did. It is basically the industry standard, and there are a lot of good products and bullets available for it.

Probably the best $20 you will spend on muzzleloading as a newbie would be to buy the video "Precision Fire Inlines". You will learn a ton of stuff about how to do muzzleloading right. You will save yourself hundreds of dollars and a lot of frustration in experimenting on products that don't work well. It is a great way to accelerate your learning curve. I would order that first and watch it before you buy a rifle.

http://www.maxmuzzleloader.com/products.html

In Colorado where you have to use open sights, buy a high quality sight like XS Ghost Ring sights, or a Williams peep sight.

 

[sabotloader]

So sounds like you would prefer the DISC over the Bighorn then. Doesn't look like a big price difference between the two. I do plan to hunt other game with the ML after this so I would like to get one that will do the job and get something I won't be totally disappointed in. I also don't want to or can spent a whole lot of time trying to get something dialed in that I may never get dialed in. Mike you are a treasure trove of info. Thanks!

There is no doubt in my mind that the DISC is a far more versatile rifle than the Big Horn, and the Big Horn is a great rifle, but... The DISC EX is a lifetime gun and can be used and fit with options that would allow you to do a lot of hunting. Including a NFPJ breech plug set up that make the breech area of the rifle virtually clean.

This is a picture of the bolt and breech area with a NFPJ (non-plastic jacket) installed. This a DISC Extreme which is different than a Mountaineer...



In the third picture down on the right - you can see the opening where you drop the 209 - close bolt the bolt to insert the primer in the breech plug - lift the bolt and pull back to extract it like a cartridge - turn the rifle sideways and drop the spent primer out.

Since you might and probably will use the rifle scoped and un-scoped - I would suggest the set you see on my Ultra Lite - the NECG with a hooded front sight and either Warne or Leupold QR release rings




Actually check this thread out - it is how I got here in the first place....

http://www.rokslide.com/forums/showthread.php?7118-Knight-ULite-Shooting-Testing&p=98616#post98616

Umpqua Hunter's suggestion of BH-209 powder is an excellent choice and with the Knight there is no need of a Magnum 209 primer a regular Win W209 works best in the BP and creates less mess in the BP. I do not use BH myself it is just to darn expensive (per 10 ounces) shot to shot for me. I just shoot to much but for the hunter shooter it is great. There is a very slight possibility you might have some hangfires with BH and a lead conical. BH is a progressive burning powder and requires compression and sealing to get full ignition. Also at the Western Powders BH-209 Load Data site you can see they do not list or recommend for any lead conical loads. Actually BH burns so physically hot it would tend to melt a lead conical without some form of insulation like a shot card between the powder and the bottom of the bullet. The bullets they list are all some form of a sabot - bullet. But also remember in Colorado - Power Belts are considered full bore conicals - even though I would not shoot them especially at a Moose. And again I am biased...

http://www.blackhorn209.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/b209muzzleloaderdata.pdf

Anything I can help with - just let me know

mike

Oh! I forgot depending on where you are located there are some excellent buys on DEx's in stores in Washington and Idaho

 

[wolfman]

Ok DVD has been ordered. I guess I might go looking this weekend and not shopping Oh well probably no need to buy one until I have a weekend to go and shoot it and that isn't going to happen this weekend. Thanks guys!

 

[actionshooter]

I'll through my 2cents in.
I have owned TC, Lyman, White and Knight. For me the Knight is hands down the best I have shot, bought a MK-85 predator the year they came out and still have it. That gun will shoot 1" groups (scope attached) if I do my job.
I would recommend the Williams peep and I like the brass apertures.

Looking at the Knight ultra-lites and following Sabotloaders posts intently.

 

[wolfman]

So I stopped tonight at Sportsman's. They had T/C, CVA, Traditions and a Knight DISC and others. The sales guy there was really a CVA fan and I will say the CVA sure looked a lot easier to clean than the Knight-at least in terms of removing the breech plug. Not sure how important that is though. He said the Knight was an ok gun too although he stated the design was old which I was thinking so what. If the design works why change it? He was not a T/C fan. Same thing I have heard every where else, that if you are hunting someplace where you can use sabot's they are great but in CO not so much. Both the CVA and the Knight both felt good when shouldered and the sight system on both seemed very similar. They wanted $499 for the Knight and $399 for the CVA Accura. At this point I think I have perhaps narrowed it down to one of these two. Stopped by Gander too but their selection was not very big at all. We left without even looking at a ML there.

 

[Umpqua Hunter]

I own both the CVA Accura and the Knight DISC Extreme in 50 caliber and hunted with both last fall.

The CVA Accura is an excellent muzzleloader, and they tend to be very accurate. My wife shot her Utah mule deer with it last year, and I shot a Montana antelope at 190 yards with it. You are definitely right on when it comes to clean up. I FAR prefer cleaning the break action on the CVA Accura over the Knight. If I was only hunting states where a "closed ignition", 209 primer rifle was legal, I would chose the CVA Accura. I have only shot sabots from my Accura so I have no first hand experience with conicals in it.

If you want a true multi-western-state muzzleloader, the Knight DISC Extreme is the go to rifle. The standard rifle will shoot 209 primers. With the "Western Conversion Kit" you can also shoot #11 percussion caps or musket caps (required in certain western states). The "Western Conversion Kit" is also "open ignition" (you can see the cap when ready to fire), which is also required for muzzleloader seasons in certain states like Oregon (my home state) and I believe Idaho (Sabotloader can comment on Idaho regs).

It comes down to:

If you want a muzzleloader for limited number of western states, go with the CVA Accura.

If you want a muzzleloader you can hunt nearly all (if not all) of the western states with go with the Knight DISC Extreme.

Which ever direction you choose, go with stainless and its better resistance to corrosion. I've seen a number of blued barrels that have been ruined by a lack of proper cleaning, stainless will be more forgiving.

 

[wolfman]

So the Knight DISC extreme they had at Sportsmans had the thunb hole stock on it. Any advantage to that? I have never owned a rifle in the past with that not sure I want or need one now.