Synthetic VS Coated/Treated Down: Performance When Wet

[Johnboy]

I'm heading to the Brooks Range to do a float hunt for moose/caribou beginning September 10th. I've been strongly advised to avoid down sleeping bags and stick with synthetic for its ability to dry out and/or maintain insulation properties when wet. After reading a zillion threads here and on other forums, the issue is still unresolved in my mind.

On the one hand, I feel inclined to go with my hunt planner's advice and get a synthetic bag. Seems like the Mountain Hardwear Lamina 0 would do the trick at 3lb 10oz: LINK. He seems convinced that synthetic is the safe way to go, given that a wet down bag would be miserable at best and perhaps fatally dangerous at worst.

On the other hand, it seems like the (vast?) majority here prefer a down bag (or even a quilt) with no reservations. The down bags are said to pack smaller and lighter, and the weight savings (90lb personal gear per hunter allowed by air taxi) could be converted to extra food, etc. I'm just not sure what to make of today's newer treated/coated down fillers. Are my hunt planner's concerns legitimate or are they old-school, unsubstantiated and inapplicable as they pertain to the latest down technology.

I know this question is probably asked ad nauseam, so please forgive my ignorance. Any insights/suggestions would be appreciated.

 

[5MilesBack]

Here's my thinking........hunting here in CO, if my down quilt gets completely soaked and becomes absolutely useless to me, I can hike out to my base camp and I'm still good. If I'm hunting the Brooks Range on a float trip and my only sleeping insulation becomes useless, my hunt could be over. I'd be carrying the extra weight and bulk of the synthetic bag. But that's me.

 

[AK Troutbum]

I'm assuming you're doing a drop camp if you're restricted to 90 pounds per person. If this is the case, I wouldn't overthink it too much. You should be able to have a fairly comfortable camp, compared to spiking on a mountain, and you should be able to have a fairly decent size tent, etc. once you get there and set up camp, it stays right there, and there shouldn't be any issues with stuff getting wet like what would maybe be a problem if you were constantly breaking camp and traveling and have to unpack and set back up, etc. I would go with the most comfortable bag that you have and, for that matter, even bring a pillow, because again, there shouldn't be any issues with your stuff getting wet as long as you take the usual precautions. Just out of curiosity, what are you guys flying in with (plane size) and how many people are going?

 

[Johnboy]

I'm assuming you're doing a drop camp if you're restricted to 90 pounds per person.

It's a float hunt, and the weight restrictions are a strict policy of the charter. We're allowed 150lbs for raft and 90lbs per guy for personal gear. I figure, fair enough; their airplane, their rules. I'll be hunting with one partner, and we're planning to use a MH Trango 4, which weighs about 12lbs. It seemed like a decent, storm-worthy compromise between ultra-light and ultra-heavy. We'll be flying in a Helio Courier, which I know has a greater capacity than the restrictions suggest, but I'm not going to argue with the pilot.

 

[Daniel_M]

Weight capacity restrictions aren't about what a plane is capable of hauling, more so where it can land.

Personally, for moose hunts Im packing a synthetic bag and synthetic layering.

 

[Yellowknife]

Odds are a down bag would be fine.... getting it wet is unlikely. But you sure aren't giving up much with a synthetic UltraLamina or similar on a float hunt. It's a little hedge at virtually no cost. I've slept countless nights in ultralaminas all over the state, and they are good bags. Compact and warm. If you aren't carrying it on your back, there is no point to overthinking the insulated sack you sleep in at night!

Yk

 

[Johnboy]

Thanks for the input, guys. Sounds like the advice I was given is good to go.

 

[Take-a-knee]

I am pro-down, but a float hunt? I'd bring a synthetic bag.

 

[AK Troutbum]

but I'm not going to argue with the pilot.

Wouldn't do you any good anyway.

 

[AK Troutbum]

Odds are a down bag would be fine.... getting it wet is unlikely. But you sure aren't giving up much with a synthetic UltraLamina or similar on a float hunt. It's a little hedge at virtually no cost. I've slept countless nights in ultralaminas all over the state, and they are good bags. Compact and warm. If you aren't carrying it on your back, there is no point to overthinking the insulated sack you sleep in at night!

Yk

Agree. I think the bottom line is, take what you feel comfortable sleeping in and keep it in a drybag when not in use. More than likely the wt. difference between a MH Ultralamnia and down bag of the same temp. rating, will not be enough to break the camels back. Oh, and take a nice fluffy pillow for sure.

 

[Kevin Dill]

If you choose a synthetic bag, one of the first things you should do is get it completely soaked and then see how much actual loft it retains. Some of the older synthetic insulations were actually made as a batting and had enough structure to them to hold up when wet. I'd be surprised if the newer ultra light and ultra puffy synthetics retained most of their insulating qualities when wet. For that matter, has anyone actually performed any recent testing comparing various synthetic fills, treated down, and non-treated down for insulating performance when wet? That's an honest question. It's always been a time-honored belief that synthetics were vastly better than down in wet environments, but I have to wonder if the proof is still somewhere in the pudding.

Anyway...I am in Alaska every fall to hunt moose and/or caribou. It's often wet and always humid. My favorite bag by far is a WM Sequoia GWS. The Gore GWS is not designated as waterproof, but it is highly water-resistant. The specs give it as 1.4 billion micropores per square inch, so it is more than capable of shedding water. I know this because I've purposely exposed it to water in multiple ways and it simply repels it. That was my rationale for going with GWS and the extra cost...keep the bag dry to begin with and the rest of the argument is pretty much moot. The down in my bag is 850 fill-power and is not a treated down. I haven't yet seen enough real-life reports about the performance of treated down to be certain of its worthiness or advantages. A beaker full of water and feathers is NOT enough proof for this guy.

Finally, I think enough of my good down bags to buy them a good waterproof compression/dry bag for in-the-field transport. I like the Sea To Summit E-Vent bags with large openings and roll-down closures.

 

[Kevin_t]

If you choose a synthetic bag, one of the first things you should do is get it completely soaked and then see how much actual loft it retains. Some of the older synthetic insulations were actually made as a batting and had enough structure to them to hold up when wet. I'd be surprised if the newer ultra light and ultra puffy synthetics retained most of their insulating qualities when wet. For that matter, has anyone actually performed any recent testing comparing various synthetic fills, treated down, and non-treated down for insulating performance when wet? That's an honest question. It's always been a time-honored belief that synthetics were vastly better than down in wet environments, but I have to wonder if the proof is still somewhere in the pudding.

Anyway...I am in Alaska every fall to hunt moose and/or caribou. It's often wet and always humid. My favorite bag by far is a WM Sequoia GWS. The Gore GWS is not designated as waterproof, but it is highly water-resistant. The specs give it as 1.4 billion micropores per square inch, so it is more than capable of shedding water. I know this because I've purposely exposed it to water in multiple ways and it simply repels it. That was my rationale for going with GWS and the extra cost...keep the bag dry to begin with and the rest of the argument is pretty much moot. The down in my bag is 850 fill-power and is not a treated down. I haven't yet seen enough real-life reports about the performance of treated down to be certain of its worthiness or advantages. A beaker full of water and feathers is NOT enough proof for this guy.

Finally, I think enough of my good down bags to buy them a good waterproof compression/dry bag for in-the-field transport. I like the Sea To Summit E-Vent bags with large openings and roll-down closures.

Those arguments are very sound IMO. All insulations loose some loft / insulating power when wet / humid it is just how much and newer / finer synthetics may loose more could be a reasonable argument. It is similar with down (or at least the untreated) that higher loft down lost more loft as a percentage when in high humidity. I do not have the numbers, but it was something along the lines of 900 fill was in the 700's with humidity at a certain percent, while 750 fill was ~720 or similar. So at higher humidity, the higher loft lost a much greater percentage of loft. Synthetics may not have that similarity, but it would not surprise me to see similar results. I have not used an Ultra Lamina so I can't comment but generally I really really prefer down. Personally, I have not been super impressed with the longevity of some of the newer synthetics I have used. For me it is pretty simple, Down and Wool if given a choice

 

[Shrek]

Kind of hard to beat 4.5 billion years of constant design and testing in all enviroments. Plain old down and wool are very sophisticated insulators with an unmatchable track record of success.

 

[idig4au]

I use both down and synthetic sleeping bags as required.

I put my Kuiu 0* superdown sleeping bag to the test on a 17 day mountain hunt last month in the Himalayas in some pretty extreme conditions and it worked absolutely flawlessly. Sustained Heavy Snow, rain, sleet, hail, high condensation, spindrift and I had no issues with it "wetting out". Has amazing loft and kept me warm. I'm sold on this one.

For Synthetic, have a look at the Kifaru Slick bag. I have both the old side zip and the first generation center zip bags (not the one with Apex insulation). The center zip bag is a vast improvement over the older models. I still seem to sleep colder in synthetic bags though.

I'm probably just going to stick with down bags for the reduced weight. If in doubt, put the bag in a dry bag while I'm not using it. Really, there is no reason any bag, down or synthetic should get wet if properly managed....in my opinion.

 

[slim9300]

Liking this thread. Thanks for the posts so far.

 

[nflesher]

Liking this thread. Thanks for the posts so far.

What he said.

 

[Where's Bruce?]

I would take a bulletproof Wiggy's bag. Stays warm when wet and dries itself out.

[video=youtube;YD3wA5Wrcmc]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YD3wA5Wrcmc[/video]