Value optics a value? Direct, German, USA made/assembled?

[Mayfly-1970]

I have been searching for a "one and done" or "cry-once buy-once" pair of 8x binoculars around the $1k budget. This will be my first "real" pair of binoculars so $1k seems high enough at this time. I have become information overloaded with all the options and opinions. I understand the value of looking through as many pairs as possible, but I don't have good access and don't want to mess with sending back direct mail if unnecessary.

I have been left with some questions: Are the direct (Maven and Toric) really worth it compared with the traditional companies-or, to that matter, the USA companies that are really importers (Vortex)? I have been looking over the used forums and I see a lot of Vortex and secondarily Mavens. Is this because people are entering with these brands (like me) and quickly moving on to the higher end European glass? Or, is is just the numbers of units on the market with these "mid-tier" companies"?

Should I forget all the new entries and just buy the Zeiss Conquests I have been eyeing, and stick with an old German name I know from my youth?

Any real experience with various companies would be appreciated. I don't want to buy something just because of a warranty (although I own several Vortex scopes that I am happy with).

 

[Tmac]

The conquests I’ve looked through were very good glass for the $. But I ended up getting Meopta Meostar’s, the Cabelas branded HD version, good used ones should fit your budget. No experience with the direct options.

 

[nobody]

Lots to unpack here.

First off, every optics company is in business for a reason. Their optics work for somebody, and somebody (or several somebodies) is buying their product consistently enough to keep them in business.

Maven has a good product. I’ve owned their C series binos in the past and wasn’t disappointed, and I have historically recommended their optics to many people and I’ve been impressed with everything I’ve messed with from them (binos and spotters only). That said, these “direct to consumer” brands are new, they all were born on the back end of the last recession. Maven and Tract haven’t survived an economic downturn yet, and with an impending recession, it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if they both didn’t survive. I would hope Maven will survive (not a Tract fan, I feel they’ve done nothing but ride the coattails of Maven after Maven paved the way and that bothers me), but I can’t say I would count on them surviving. The guys who started maven used to work for Brunton optics, who fizzled out during the recession. What’s to say their new company doesn’t do the same? Again, I hope it doesn’t happen, but it does make you think.

With the exception of the “big 3” (swaro, Leica, and zeiss), ALL optics companies are just marketers and importers. They all just go to an OEM and lay out their required spec and order X number of units, market them, import them, and sell them. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s reality. Take a look at Maven, Leupold, and Vortex’s top of the line spotters and you’ll see what I mean. They’re physically identical. Same bodies, same focus mechanisms, same dimensions, same weights, same everything. Only differences being their magnification cutoffs and glass coatings. Maven’s B2 and Vortex’s Razor UHD come out of the same factory in Kamakura Japan and use all the same prism system, the difference is the magnification and body spec, along with glass coatings. That doesn’t necessarily mean they’re identical binos, and it certainly doesn’t mean they’re a bad product. On the contrary, they’re both amazing glass.

That said, Swaro Leica and zeiss are still considered top of the heap by most people as far as product quality. That said, what you’re gaining in optical performance is oftentimes offset by a decrease in customer service. There have been multiple threads here on Rokslide lately detailing issues with Zeiss’s customer service and their lack of care or transparency. Lots of reports across the internet regarding Leica’s slow handling of issues, and reviews on Swaro’s CS is a mixed bag of good and bad. Personally, I’ve dealt with Swaro (rangefinder) and tried to help a hunting partner deal with Zeiss. My experience with Swaro was poor to poor plus, bad enough it turned me off of them forever. Zeiss was so hard to deal with on a cleanup of an old pair of binos for a hunting partner he eventually just gave up on sending them in.

Bottom line, all companies are doing something right, and it’s up to you to test them all out and compare. Once you make a decision, stick with it and quit asking people what they think of your decision, because somebody will always disapprove. My advice is to go to a shop with a mountain range not incredibly far off, have their resident optics junky load up all the binos you wanna look at, grab some snacks, and take them outside and compare them with one another side by side for a couple hours. You’ll slowly narrow them down, especially if you go towards the end of the day when light is fading, and you’ll be able to make an easy decision then. Try to ignore the brand name and be objective about what you’re seeing, then buy what your eyes like the most. Don’t get hung up on the status that comes with owning an “alpha” bino, chances are you’ll be disappointed somehow. If your eyes like them and it’s easy for you to stay in the glass without getting a headache or sore eyes, that’s what you’re after. Whether it’s a Nikon or a Vortex or a Maven or a Swaro that does that best remains to be seen, and the brand really does not matter at the end of the day. And comparing side by side for a LONG time is the only way to determine what works best for your eyes.

 

[Boarmaster]

If I had to do over my buy once cry once purchase of binos I would look first to buy a set of used binos of my choosing that had a warrant. I never seem to take my own advise.

 

[Superdoo]

Black Friday a year or two ago, Maven had a sale and Cabela's had Vipers on sale. They were basically the same price. At the time I was running some diamondbacks, so I decided to see what all the fuss was about. I had never even bothered looking through higher price points than the diamondbacks.
I ordered both.
I put them up side by side and found the Mavens and Vipers to be visually indistinguishable from one another. Both were a vast improvement over the Diamondback.
So I decided to see what the next price point up got me. I went down to Scheels and grabbed a pair of Razors. I mean if Vipers were that much better than Diamondbacks, then what happens at the next level???

I had two tripods and looked through them all and scratched my head... did I put the Diamondbacks on instead of the Razors??? They're physically similar so maybe in my haste to evaluate I screwed up. I actually got up went back to the gear room and found the Diamondbacks where I left them. I then took them and put them side by side with the Razors. They were optically the same.
You read that right. Visually I couldn't tell the difference between a $200 pair and a $1k pair.

The Razor's went back to Scheels and were swapped with Conquest's. This time I could tell that Zeiss were brighter, but not by much and in my opinion not enough to justify the price jump.

The moral of the story is that if I had gone to Scheels with the intent of buying a pair of Razors because Razors are supposedly great, I would have paid $800 more than I would have needed to and probably wouldn't have noticed until it was way too late. So, even though you don't want to pay for return shipping... you won't know what your getting if you don't evaluate the options with your own eyeballs.

 

[Mayfly-1970]

Lots to unpack here.

First off, every optics company is in business for a reason. Their optics work for somebody, and somebody (or several somebodies) is buying their product consistently enough to keep them in business.

Maven has a good product. I’ve owned their C series binos in the past and wasn’t disappointed, and I have historically recommended their optics to many people and I’ve been impressed with everything I’ve messed with from them (binos and spotters only). That said, these “direct to consumer” brands are new, they all were born on the back end of the last recession. Maven and Tract haven’t survived an economic downturn yet, and with an impending recession, it wouldn’t surprise me one bit if they both didn’t survive. I would hope Maven will survive (not a Tract fan, I feel they’ve done nothing but ride the coattails of Maven after Maven paved the way and that bothers me), but I can’t say I would count on them surviving. The guys who started maven used to work for Brunton optics, who fizzled out during the recession. What’s to say their new company doesn’t do the same? Again, I hope it doesn’t happen, but it does make you think.

With the exception of the “big 3” (swaro, Leica, and zeiss), ALL optics companies are just marketers and importers. They all just go to an OEM and lay out their required spec and order X number of units, market them, import them, and sell them. That’s not necessarily a bad thing, but it’s reality. Take a look at Maven, Leupold, and Vortex’s top of the line spotters and you’ll see what I mean. They’re physically identical. Same bodies, same focus mechanisms, same dimensions, same weights, same everything. Only differences being their magnification cutoffs and glass coatings. Maven’s B2 and Vortex’s Razor UHD come out of the same factory in Kamakura Japan and use all the same prism system, the difference is the magnification and body spec, along with glass coatings. That doesn’t necessarily mean they’re identical binos, and it certainly doesn’t mean they’re a bad product. On the contrary, they’re both amazing glass.

That said, Swaro Leica and zeiss are still considered top of the heap by most people as far as product quality. That said, what you’re gaining in optical performance is oftentimes offset by a decrease in customer service. There have been multiple threads here on Rokslide lately detailing issues with Zeiss’s customer service and their lack of care or transparency. Lots of reports across the internet regarding Leica’s slow handling of issues, and reviews on Swaro’s CS is a mixed bag of good and bad. Personally, I’ve dealt with Swaro (rangefinder) and tried to help a hunting partner deal with Zeiss. My experience with Swaro was poor to poor plus, bad enough it turned me off of them forever. Zeiss was so hard to deal with on a cleanup of an old pair of binos for a hunting partner he eventually just gave up on sending them in.

Bottom line, all companies are doing something right, and it’s up to you to test them all out and compare. Once you make a decision, stick with it and quit asking people what they think of your decision, because somebody will always disapprove. My advice is to go to a shop with a mountain range not incredibly far off, have their resident optics junky load up all the binos you wanna look at, grab some snacks, and take them outside and compare them with one another side by side for a couple hours. You’ll slowly narrow them down, especially if you go towards the end of the day when light is fading, and you’ll be able to make an easy decision then. Try to ignore the brand name and be objective about what you’re seeing, then buy what your eyes like the most. Don’t get hung up on the status that comes with owning an “alpha” bino, chances are you’ll be disappointed somehow. If your eyes like them and it’s easy for you to stay in the glass without getting a headache or sore eyes, that’s what you’re after. Whether it’s a Nikon or a Vortex or a Maven or a Swaro that does that best remains to be seen, and the brand really does not matter at the end of the day. And comparing side by side for a LONG time is the only way to determine what works best for your eyes.

Thank you for the thoughtful reply and great information to consider.

 

[Mayfly-1970]

Black Friday a year or two ago, Maven had a sale and Cabela's had Vipers on sale. They were basically the same price. At the time I was running some diamondbacks, so I decided to see what all the fuss was about. I had never even bothered looking through higher price points than the diamondbacks.
I ordered both.
I put them up side by side and found the Mavens and Vipers to be visually indistinguishable from one another. Both were a vast improvement over the Diamondback.
So I decided to see what the next price point up got me. I went down to Scheels and grabbed a pair of Razors. I mean if Vipers were that much better than Diamondbacks, then what happens at the next level???

I had two tripods and looked through them all and scratched my head... did I put the Diamondbacks on instead of the Razors??? They're physically similar so maybe in my haste to evaluate I screwed up. I actually got up went back to the gear room and found the Diamondbacks where I left them. I then took them and put them side by side with the Razors. They were optically the same.
You read that right. Visually I couldn't tell the difference between a $200 pair and a $1k pair.

The Razor's went back to Scheels and were swapped with Conquest's. This time I could tell that Zeiss were brighter, but not by much and in my opinion not enough to justify the price jump.

The moral of the story is that if I had gone to Scheels with the intent of buying a pair of Razors because Razors are supposedly great, I would have paid $800 more than I would have needed to and probably wouldn't have noticed until it was way too late. So, even though you don't want to pay for return shipping... you won't know what your getting if you don't evaluate the options with your own eyeballs.

Good feedback and lesson on variability in product lines. Reaffirms to look through as many as possible before purchase while being brand agnostic.

 

[Dos XX]

Kowa Genesis worth looking at in that price range. Cameraland has them on special sometimes, and they often have ooen box unit's

 

[Reed104R]

I have dealt in used optics for years, having owned, sold, and/or used many alpha grade optics. As a dealer/trader, I have the luxury of handling alot of optics and enjoy comparisons in the field. There are alot of good options in your price range, but in my opinion, the Vortex UHD will be hard to top. Look for used or refurbished models at around $1k. Optically, they are among the best money can buy. There might only be 5 or 6 better binoculars on the market, and they will likely cost you more than double. Vortex build quality is not quite up to par with the big three, but the warranty is likely the best in the industry. It's good to try different models and decide for yourself. I really like Zeiss Conquest, Leica Trinovid, and Swarovski SLC's as well.

 

[GetWestern]

In my experience dealing with different brands of glass I’d stay with the ziess. I know people talk an about the razors and vortex warranty but the reason vortex has their “unbeatable” warranty is cause they need it. Vortex has to make that money back somewhere and cutting cost on the material of frame the glass and the coating they use are how they do it. Just about everyone will have good or bad experiences with any companies customer service at this point so its sixes when it comes to CS. Sticking with any of the big 4 brands is usually what people wished they did in the first place.

 

[Hoodie]

Worth mentioning that the Zeiss Conquest is also made with Japanese components. Likely from Kamakura. I think they do final assembly/QC in Germany. The only binocular in the $1k range that's actually made in Europe as far as I know is the Meopta Meostar. It's a great optic, but not necessarily better than the Japanese offerings in that price range.

For an 8x42 in the $1k range I'd recommend:

1) Maven B1.2
2) Nikon Monarch HG

Maven will almost certainly have better customer service than Nikon. If weight isn't a big concern people really like the Meopta Meostar and Kowa Genesis. But they're substantially heavier than the two I mentioned.

 

[wildcat33]

There is no free lunch. You get exactly what you pay for, some times a little less, sometimes a little more. There is no magic in "direct to consumer". Youre not geting a $1500 optic for $1000. Youre getting a $1000 optic for $1000. I would stick with a blue chip brand. Nikon, Vortex, Kowa, Zeiss, etc.

 

[DangerRanger]

I’ve been seeing trinovid used prices fall to the point that I feel like they are one of the best values in binos personally.

I saw some sell for 525 mint. To me that’s a crazy good value

 

[eaglemountainman]

You should call Doug at CameraLand, and talk to him about Kowa Genesis 8X33s.

 

[JGRaider]

There's no need to chase the latest and greatest anymore with all the great glass available in the $1k range....

Nikon MHG
Meopta Meostar
GPO HD
Tract Toric
Zeiss Conquest

 

[*zap*]

with todays marketplace things sell for what they are worth for the most part, except things that are a rip off but those are not the good brands...

 

[Glockster26]

I did not do the buy one cry once method. I went the long about it. Vortex diamondbacks-Maven C1- Zeiss conquest.
I bought what I thought I could afford at the time. I’m probably lost a little bit of money each time I sold binos, but that’s just part of it.
If you can afford them, I would just go with the Zeiss conquest, Lecia Trinovid, meostar’s or maybe a set of used swaro’s.

 

[Mayfly-1970]

In my experience dealing with different brands of glass I’d stay with the ziess. I know people talk an about the razors and vortex warranty but the reason vortex has their “unbeatable” warranty is cause they need it. Vortex has to make that money back somewhere and cutting cost on the material of frame the glass and the coating they use are how they do it. Just about everyone will have good or bad experiences with any companies customer service at this point so its sixes when it comes to CS. Sticking with any of the big 4 brands is usually what people wished they did in the first place.

The feedback "what people wished they did in the first place" is exactly what I am talking about. Thanks for the reply.

 

[PVHunter]

I'd give Doug a ring, too. I was actually looking at this demo pair of Meostar 8x42s that's on the site right now --> https://cameralandny.com/shop/brand...bb93-013b-9a7b-00163ecd2826?variation=3420432

 

[Mayfly-1970]

I did not do the buy one cry once method. I went the long about it. Vortex diamondbacks-Maven C1- Zeiss conquest.
I bought what I thought I could afford at the time. I’m probably lost a little bit of money each time I sold binos, but that’s just part of it.
If you can afford them, I would just go with the Zeiss conquest, Lecia Trinovid, meostar’s or maybe a set of used swaro’s.

Great feedback that I will certainly consider. I have all too often gone the long way around looking for a "bargain" or something that hits above its weight- most of the time the price of education ends up costing me.