16" suppressed elk gun

[Marshfly]

Looking back at the original post the guy mentions 400 yards.

Absolutely a normal everyday hunter will be more likely to make a great shot on an elk at 400 with a 6.5 creedmoor compared to a 300 PRC.

No question.


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[DaleW]

You didn’t say people that are interested in long range shooting. You said any person. You also didn’t say long range. Not a steel plate. You said an elk.

And your last sentence tells me you agree that a smaller caliber is easier to hit stuff with.

You guys sure do talk in circles a lot.

Just stop being so adamant about huge calibers being better and actually think about this stuff.


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Did you honestly think I meant random people? This is a western hunting forum so I kinda thought it went without saying I meant hunters.

You're right I did say elk and then in my example I said a target. My b. It doesn't really matter though. My point is the same.

 

[Marbles]

Recoil certainly does matter. But why is it when someone says "shoot the biggest cartridge you can accurately shoot for elk" so many immediately say that's dumb and to use a 6mm? I'm not saying a 130 pound woman(or anyone) has to use a 300 prc, it just seems smart to have the most effective set up for achieving a first round vital hit. That will be different for everyone, but the "223 or 6 creed for everything" thing that is parroted so much is simply not good advise.

As far as follow up shots I agree if they get hit they usually just stand there and wait to get shot again. I was more speaking to a miss. Even with a can it seems like what actually spooks them is the bullet cracking past them and impacting the surrounding area. In that situation IME they blow out before another shot can be taken.

If you miss an animal as big as an elk completely at any range, it is time to stop shooting and have a talk with yourself, it is certainly not the time to try and make a follow up shot because you are shooting well past your capabilities.

Someone who knows themself and their equipment will wound fewer elk with a 22 LR than a clown with a 300 PRC who thinks he can shoot long range.

Walking rounds onto target is not acceptable in hunting. Save it for the range or war.

 

[Marshfly]

Did you honestly think I meant random people? This is a western hunting forum so I kinda thought it went without saying I meant hunters.

You're right I did say elk and then in my example I said a target. My b. It doesn't really matter though. My point is the same.

If you think the average member of this forum is proficient to 800 yards you are laughably ignorant. I’m moving on.


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[DaleW]

If you miss an animal as big as an elk completely at any range, it is time to stop shooting and have a talk with yourself, it is certainly not the time to try and make a follow up shot because you are shooting well past your capabilities.

Someone who knows themself and their equipment will wound fewer elk with a 22 LR than a clown with a 300 PRC who thinks he can shoot long range.

Walking rounds onto target is not acceptable in hunting. Save it for the range or war.

? I agree I wasn't advocating for walking shots in on an elk. My point was that worrying about having the least amount of recoil for a follow up shot isn't super important. They'll likely run if you miss or if you hit typically you'll have time for another shot no matter the cartridge.

 

[Mike Islander]

I'm sure for you it'd be fine. I'm not doubting it will kill them.

Even a 6.5 creed shooting 140 berger hybrids at 2750 will move around 10" more than the 300 prc at 600 yards in a 15 mph wind. I'm not saying a guy that can very effectively call wind wouldn't be fine, I just think there's a point where these smaller rounds can definitely start to be limiting. And that point where it starts to make a difference isn't as far out as people on here make it sound. Alot of guys are killing at those 6-800 yard ranges.

And also, it seems that you put alot of weight on follow up shots. But if we're talking about elk on public land(not culling whitetail does in a cow pasture) in my expression they run like hell as soon they hear a gun shot and there usually isn't a chance for a follow up shot. Of course being able to spot hits is very important, but in this context I'd absolutely take more recoil for even slightly higher first round hit rate.

6.5 Creedmoor with 140 ELD-M at 2700 is within 4" wind deflection at 600. And with either rifle you're doing holds. The dominant variable will still be recoil.

 

[Formidilosus]

Recoil certainly does matter. But why is it when someone says "shoot the biggest cartridge you can accurately shoot for elk" so many immediately say that's dumb and to use a 6mm?

Because in killing and seeing killed huge numbers of animals by large numbers of people from world class to rank beginners no one has performed better with “the biggest cartridge you can shoot accurately”. Well actually, that’s exactly what works, the problem is the largest gun nearly everyone can shoot “accurately” is about 15 ft-lbs of recoil. This isn’t a guess- I have seen well over one hundred different people (including about two dozen from this forum) in the last year shoot in varied mountainous conditions in the western US in the last year. Not one hit more targets out to 800 yards with 300 win mags and 300prc’s than those exact same people did with 6mm creedmoors. Not one. People lie to themselves about how well they shoot guns, or simply have no idea what they actually do on demand with guns in novel terrian.

I'm not saying a 130 pound woman(or anyone) has to use a 300 prc, it just seems smart to have the most effective set up for achieving a first round vital hit. That will be different for everyone, but the "223 or 6 creed for everything" thing that is parroted so much is simply not good advise.

Ok we can make this easy. Please list every elk that you have killed with your 300 PRC and 215gr Bergers, the range, presentation, impact location, the bullets performance, and the exact reaction that the animal gave. Then list the same for each you have killed or that you have directly spotted for being killled with 223’s, 6mm’s, and 6.5mm’s- giving all the same information.

I will do the exact same- 20 elk last year from 80 yards to 803 yards, and from 223’s to 300 PRC’s. 16 elk the season before from 80 yards to 984 yards, and from 223’s to 300 PRC’s. 14 elk the year before from 197 yards to 735 yards, and from 223’s to 300Win mags. In every year there are kills with .224, 6mm, 6.5mm and 30 cals. If you want we can go back more than three seasons that have just as many elk killed and have 25, 27, and 338 cals included.

As far as follow up shots I agree if they get hit they usually just stand there and wait to get shot again. I was more speaking to a miss. Even with a can it seems like what actually spooks them is the bullet cracking past them and impacting the surrounding area. In that situation IME they blow out before another shot can be taken.

If they all run off after a miss- who cares? It’s when you make a poor shot, or even a good one and can get follow up shots in the animal because you saw the impact and learned from it.

 

[Formidilosus]

If we're talking about people who hunt out west and are interested in lr shooting I don't think it's 1%.

You’re right- it’s isn’t even remotely close to 1% of hunters that “believe” they are good to 800 yards that actually are good to 800 yards in the west. Not reliably close to that. I hunt in 3-4 western states a year, make a habit to talk with anyone I run into about what they are shooting and what their success is, and have never, not a single time, ran into someone that didn’t have a rodeo at 600+ yards.

Colorado has a draw for elk reduction that hunters out in for them gave to go to a range day and hit a 14” target at 200 yards three times in row, and a 14” target at 300 yards three times in a row- no misses allowed. All the hunters know what the standard is, and yet they are averaging less then 15% pass rate at 200 and 300 yards on 14” plates per group that comes.


Go look at all the people that shot the Cold Bore Challenge this year and see how many hit two shots in a row on a 10” plate at 600 yards, then look at how many of those same posters claimed before hand they were 100% to 800+ yards.

My example, while a bit extreme, was just to illustrate the point that a smaller round that is more affected by wind will have a lower first round hit rate at long range. Period. The shooter's ability to handle recoil is the X factor. And that is different for everyone. Obviously if you're shooting too big of a gun, you aren't gonna hit anything.

Ok. What is your actual, verified first round hit rate on 12” targets in novel mountain terrain in the west with your 300 PRC. Not one or two shots; what has been your first hit rate at 800 yards for the last 100 first rounds shots you have taken, at a target and location you have never shot on before at least 800 yards or farther?

 

[DaleW]

Because in killing and seeing killed huge numbers of animals by large numbers of people from world class to rank beginners no one has performed better with “the biggest cartridge you can shoot accurately”. Well actually, that’s exactly what works, the problem is the largest gun nearly everyone can shoot “accurately” is about 15 ft-lbs of recoil. This isn’t a guess- I have seen well over one hundred different people (including about two dozen from this forum) in the last year shoot in varied mountainous conditions in the western US in the last year. Not one hit more targets out to 800 yards with 300 win mags and 300prc’s than those exact same people did with 6mm creedmoors. Not one. People lie to themselves about how well they shoot guns, or simply have no idea what they actually do on demand with guns in novel terrian.







Ok we can make this easy. Please list every elk that you have killed with your 300 PRC and 215gr Bergers, the range, presentation, impact location, the bullets performance, and the exact reaction that the animal gave. Then list the same for each you have killed or that you have directly spotted for being killled with 223’s, 6mm’s, and 6.5mm’s- giving all the same information.

I will do the exact same- 20 elk last year from 80 yards to 803 yards, and from 223’s to 300 PRC’s. 16 elk the season before from 80 yards to 984 yards, and from 223’s to 300 PRC’s. 14 elk the year before from 197 yards to 735 yards, and from 223’s to 300Win mags. In every year there are kills with .224, 6mm, 6.5mm and 30 cals. If you want we can go back more than three seasons that have just as many elk killed and have 25, 27, and 338 cals included.








If they all run off after a miss- who cares? It’s when you make a poor shot, or even a good one and can get follow up shots in the animal because you saw the impact and learned from it.

As I said before, obviously shooting too big of a gun will be detrimental to accuracy. But when we're talking about making precise shots on game in varying wind conditions out to 800 yards, too small of a cartridge could be detrimental as well.

With my 300wm shooting 215s@ 2900 I have around a 90% first round hit rate on a approximately 12" target at around 800 yards.

With my 6.5 creedmoor shooting 140 bergers @ 2750 I have around a 70% hit rate.

I think these numbers are pretty accurate. I looked through my notes on shooting over the past few months and tried my best to get an average. I'm mainly out on national forest land shooting rocks though not targets. I try to select rocks between 1- 2moa to shoot.

The difference in wind drift between the creed and the 300 wm is 16". Some days when there's very low wind I can't notice a difference between the 2. On days when its gusting the 300wm seems more forgiving.

These are simply my findings through my own shooting and lr hunting. I'm just a guy who shoots rocks in the off season and a couple bucks and a bull during hunting season. I'll be quiet now.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Rocks are hard. Dont get me wrong, I shoot alot of rocks, they are my favorite thing to shoot.

But you hang a plate or clay birds or whatever out there thats an actual known size. And you get humbled real quick.

 

[Formidilosus]

With my 300wm shooting 215s@ 2900 I have around a 90% first round hit rate on a approximately 12" target at around 800 yards.

I hope this comes across as how it is meant, and not rudely.

There are no shooters that have a 90% first round hit rate on 12” targets in western mountains, with 15mph winds- none. 90% on 12” target requires a sub 1 MOA extreme spread rifle system for 30 shots- not a couple 3 shot groups, and to be able to call wind within 1 mph. In common mountain conditions with broken terrain and with any wind at all, no one can call wind to less than 1 mph in a location that they have never shot in or seen.

Not trying to be rude, but the best competitive shooters in the world can not call wind to within 1 mph at 800 yards in broken terrain that they have never shot in or seen shot in.

 

[Steve300xcw]

Thats about as gentle as you could have put it

 

[Marshfly]

Most people are going to wear the rose colored glasses they’ve always worn. Some will choose to take them off and see the reality.


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[DaleW]

I hope this comes across as how it is meant, and not rudely.

There are no shooters that have a 90% first round hit rate on 12” targets in western mountains, with 15mph winds- none. 90% on 12” target requires a sub 1 MOA extreme spread rifle system for 30 shots- not a couple 3 shot groups, and to be able to call wind within 1 mph. In common mountain conditions with broken terrain and with any wind at all, no one can call wind to less than 1 mph in a location that they have never shot in or seen.

Not trying to be rude, but the best competitive shooters in the world can not call wind to within 1 mph at 800 yards in broken terrain that they have never shot in or seen shot in.

Most of my shooting is done in pretty the same area that I'm very familiar with. I qualified a "first round impact" as just ranging and shooting a target I've never shot before. And the wind is usually much lower than 15 mph. I just skimmed through my notes and came up with those numbers rather than not responding.

 

[Marbles]

Well, I'm pole vaulting mouse turds again. So, it looks like fps difference between a 16.5 inch barrel and a 18 inch barrel will be 75 fps at most, so about 50 yards of effective range, does that sound correct?

 

[Formidilosus]

Well, I'm pole vaulting mouse turds again. So, it looks like fps difference between a 16.5 inch barrel and a 18 inch barrel will be 75 fps at most, so about 50 yards of effective range, does that sound correct?

Correct.

 

[Bluegrassvw]

You’re right- it’s isn’t even remotely close to 1% of hunters that “believe” they are good to 800 yards that actually are good to 800 yards in the west. Not reliably close to that. I hunt in 3-4 western states a year, make a habit to talk with anyone I run into about what they are shooting and what their success is, and have never, not a single time, ran into someone that didn’t have a rodeo at 600+ yards.

Colorado has a draw for elk reduction that hunters out in for them gave to go to a range day and hit a 14” target at 200 yards three times in row, and a 14” target at 300 yards three times in a row- no misses allowed. All the hunters know what the standard is, and yet they are averaging less then 15% pass rate at 200 and 300 yards on 14” plates per group that comes.


Go look at all the people that shot the Cold Bore Challenge this year and see how many hit two shots in a row on a 10” plate at 600 yards, then look at how many of those same posters claimed before hand they were 100% to 800+ yards.

I am not surprised one bit here… my take is most hunters “practice” just before the season start. Practice involves either shooting a 3 shoot good enough 12” group at 100 yards or a pie plate group with their bow at 20 yards. It’s sad, it’s stupid, but these people are “hunters”. Similar to my opinion on driving, we are to eager and willing to give licenses for hunting, in order to collect the revenue it produces at the public’s and animals welfare. Both should involve a difficult test in efficiency.

 

[atmat]

The military did a study back in the 90’s and found the optimum barrel length for the 308 to be 18.75”

What study and can you link it?

 

[Bluegrassvw]

What study and can you link it?

Trying to find it now…
If I recall, the study produced rifles and the build was based on optimized function for subsonic and supers as well as handling.

 

[Whitey375]

Just Google long barrel 308 test. This isn't rocket surgery.

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