6.5 creed vs 30-06

[Rich M]

My response was meant for Form but I'll entertain.

The above statement is In your opinion.

That still doesn't answer my question though. What was the motivation for trying initially? And through that trial and error process of trying to find the minimum that would "kill just as efficiently", were any animals lost or wounded? I'm guessing you weren't pioneering this trend so I don't expect an answer I just wonder why...

More accurate is a pretty broad statement that takes for granted way too many variables. Easier to handle, lower recoil, etc. should really take that place in the argument imo. Remember, recoil happens after a bullet has exited the barrel so it has zero bearing on the accuracy of the rifle.

A heavy recoiling gun will recoil itself off the target. The energy pushing the bullet will move the barrel.

 

[Outdoorsman12b]

I'm going to be playing with Hunter powder in my Tikka as soon as it warms up, going to try a few different bullets. I have high hopes for the 178s, they're a lot less expensive than Berger 190 hunters.

I just loaded a batch of the 178 up with hunter in tikka. Did not find pressure but velocity was flat from 58-59.5 grains at about 2650, then jumped to 2730 at 60 grains. Temp was about 5 fn so not sure if that was the temp sensitivity showing but was not impressed. 55 grains of H4350 got 2730 as well.

 

[wind gypsy]

Remember, recoil happens after a bullet has exited the barrel so it has zero bearing on the accuracy of the rifle.

This is not correct.

 

[Bluefish]

Remember, recoil happens after a bullet has exited the barrel so it has zero bearing on the accuracy of the rifle

this is not true at all. The gun starts moving as soon as the bullet moves. F=ma. It may be a small movement before the bullet exits, but it’s moving. This is why muzzle brakes damage scopes. The gun moves backwards, then when the bullet leaves the barrel it suddenly accelerates forward. That two direction force is really hard on optics. I saw a acceleration trace one time and it was eye opening how big the force change was from the brake.

 

[General RE LEE]

Remember, recoil happens after a bullet has exited the barrel so it has zero bearing on the accuracy of the rifle

this is not true at all. The gun starts moving as soon as the bullet moves. F=ma. It may be a small movement before the bullet exits, but it’s moving. This is why muzzle brakes damage scopes. The gun moves backwards, then when the bullet leaves the barrel it suddenly accelerates forward. That two direction force is really hard on optics. I saw a acceleration trace one time and it was eye opening how big the force change was from the brake.

Muzzle brakes damage scopes? Are we talking Bushnell scopes in the plastic packaging that is out in the aisles at Academy Sports or the good chit that’s behind the counter in a cardboard box.

 

[Bluefish]

Muzzle brakes damage scopes? Are we talking Bushnell scopes in the plastic packaging that is out in the aisles at Academy Sports or the good chit that’s behind the counter in a cardboard box.

Can be good ones. Had a 10x swfa fail in 45 shots. Knocked the reticle loose inside. Better scopes handle the forces better, but muzzle brakes are harder on scopes than unbraked rifles. Same with air guns. Thats why air guns need scopes designed for air guns. They get the spring force one way, then recoil the other. Really shakes the scope.

 

[bmart2622]

Absolute fact that muzzle brakes can damage optics!! Just like the air rifle mentioned above, due to the way the direction of the recoil changes

 

[Laramie]

Both. ID, MT, WY.

I do appreciate your time and well though out responses.

I can't change my experiences from the past so will always likely hold on to some of my opinions as I'm sure anything I type, post, or show likely won't change most of your opinions.

Reactions like this are what I have come to expect from well placed bullets from smaller calibers. This was a bull taken with a 6.5 CM and one of the bullets you recommend. Dead elk no doubt but it took a bit and, if he had been spooked or full of adrenaline, would have covered quite a bit more distance.

Reactions like this are what I have regularly experienced with the medium to larger calibers.

 

[mt100gr.]

I do appreciate your time and well though out responses.

I can't change my experiences from the past so will always likely hold on to some of my opinions as I'm sure anything I type, post, or show likely won't change most of your opinions.

Reactions like this are what I have come to expect from well placed bullets from smaller calibers. This was a bull taken with a 6.5 CM and one of the bullets you recommend. Dead elk no doubt but it took a bit and, if he had been spooked or full of adrenaline, would have covered quite a bit more distance.

Reactions like this are what I have regularly experienced with the medium to larger calibers.

What .264 bullet was that shot with? And what was the range? Where exactly was POI? I couldn't tell in video.

Were you involved with that hunt?

 

[stealthgoat]

This thread inspired me to load up some 178 grain ELD-X over 58.5 grains Ramshot Hunter for my dad’s 30-06.

View attachment 529500View attachment 529501

Dangit,I nearly came to the range this afternoon too!

hey, I recognize that range !
I ended up doing yard work, a lot less fun

 

[Laramie]

What .264 bullet was that shot with? And what was the range? Where exactly was POI? I couldn't tell in video.

Were you involved with that hunt?

147 grain ELD is what the person who posted the video stated. The range appears to be 150 - 200 yards. POI appears to be a few inches behind the shoulder when blown up on a big screen but no way to know for sure. I was not part of the hunt- I simply posted it as it is similar to what I have personally witnessed with smaller caliber hits.

 

[Formidilosus]

I do appreciate your time and well though out responses.

As I do yours.

I can't change my experiences from the past so will always likely hold on to some of my opinions as I'm sure anything I type, post, or show likely won't change most of your opinions.

I can appreciate that. I do want to be clear- I don’t write opinions. I track as much data as possible and use that information to make decisions. That “data” was very often contour to my initial feelings about the subject. Feelings lie.

Reactions like this are what I have come to expect from well placed bullets from smaller calibers. This was a bull taken with a 6.5 CM and one of the bullets you recommend. Dead elk no doubt but it took a bit and, if he had been spooked or full of adrenaline, would have covered quite a bit more distance.

This is the moment of bullet impact. This is not a “double lung”.



That’s fur rippling and distortion from the bullet trace on the back end. Tucking the butt is another indication of a hit in the hip. Also in the video you can see the bull limp when he takes steps with his back leg.

 

[mt100gr.]

147 grain ELD is what the person who posted the video stated. The range appears to be 150 - 200 yards. POI appears to be a few inches behind the shoulder when blown up on a big screen but no way to know for sure. I was not part of the hunt- I simply posted it as it is similar to what I have personally witnessed with smaller caliber hits.

10-4. Agreed on the apparent range. And in watching it again, I still can't call POI with any certainty. Form's consideration of the trace and the tuck, sheds some light, tho.

I will say that I have never seen any big game animal keep its feet that long if it had been hit in the lungs. And I looked back a few times in the video and could not see any blood on the front half of that bull while it was on its feet. If it had taken one thru the lungs, I believe there would be some evidence of a leak.

I have come to very much like the 147 ELDM as a hunting bullet. And in my experience, it performs very well with good shot placement.

 

[Laramie]

As I do yours.




I can appreciate that. I do want to be clear- I don’t write opinions. I track as much data as possible and use that information to make decisions. That “data” was very often contour to my initial feelings about the subject. Feelings lie.




This is the moment of bullet impact. This is not a “double lung”.



That’s fur rippling and distortion from the bullet trace on the back end. Tucking the butt is another indication of a hit in the hip. Also in the video you can see the bull limp when he takes steps with his back leg.

Watch from about 6:07 to about 6:40. He is visibly coughing. He also walks away from that point without a noticeable limp but does seem to stumble once. I'll admit I don't know for sure but that bull looks sick and doesn't travel very far from that point on but remained alive for a while based on the commentary. It very well could have been a bad shot but that wasn't my reason for posting- I was simply giving an example of what I have personally witnessed with lighter calibers- little reaction at the shot and a live elk for a little longer. That very well could be due to the bullets being used at the time.

Here is another video. Again, no clue where the first shot hit but the bull was indeed hit hard enough to separate from his group and bed down. I believe a larger caliber would have made quicker work in both instances.

 

[AZ_Hunter_2000]

Watch from about 6:07 to about 6:40. He is visibly coughing. He also walks away from that point without a noticeable limp but does seem to stumble once. I'll admit I don't know for sure but that bull looks sick and doesn't travel very far from that point on but remained alive for a while based on the commentary. It very well could have been a bad shot but that wasn't my reason for posting- I was simply giving an example of what I have personally witnessed with lighter calibers- little reaction at the shot and a live elk for a little longer. That very well could be due to the bullets being used at the time.

Here is another video. Again, no clue where the first shot hit but the bull was indeed hit hard enough to separate from his group and bed down. I believe a larger caliber would have made quicker work in both instances.

Bigger does not also mean faster nor mean the animal will shown a definite sign of being hit.

This was from a mature NE whitetail. He was shot under 300 yards with a 190 gr Berger out of a 300 WM; slightly quartered.

Using your logic, I should have used a larger caliber or more powerful cartridge as this buck should zero signs of being hit.

Sometimes animals just do not want to die while other times they'll give up the ghost easily.

 

[Formidilosus]

Watch from about 6:07 to about 6:40.

I did. I have seen that reaction on animals dozens of times with rear end hits, and quite a few elk, though interestingly all with magnums.

Here is another video. Again, no clue where the first shot hit but the bull was indeed hit hard enough to separate from his group and bed down.

That’s literally what I have seen with every elk hit, including bad hits- I have yet to see a body hit on an elk and that elk take off running. Not saying it doesn’t happen, however in closing on close to a hundred elk so far, only one has ran after the shot like a whitetail. That one was at 197 yards, and again with a 223/77gr TMK and ran about 60 yards and died.

I believe a larger caliber would have made quicker work in both instances.

And this is the crux- everyone I have ever met, including quite a few members of this site, that “believe” that there is a functional difference between calibers, either don’t have enough data points to form any conclusions, or haven’t tracked what elk have done. I’m not saying this is you, but it is what is normal. Every person I have met that have killed or seen killed a couple of dozen elk with 6mm and 6.5’s as well as 30cals all have the same experience- use “tough” bullets as usually suggested and the animals travel farther. Use heavy for caliber, rapidly upsetting bullets, animals don’t travel far regardless of caliber.

One former member here was a very big proponent of 30 and 338 cal mags, and had seen enough elk killed with them and smaller calibers to get some info. The issue is that he didn’t actually track what happened- he “felt” that the larger rounds killed faster. But as we sat down and he started going through each elk- the cartridges, bullet, distance, and elk reaction- he quickly realized that there was no clear pattern to it except that elk traveled less distance after the hit when shot with Bergers (regardless of caliber) than they did with anything else. And he HATED bergers.
All he did was look at the elk shot with Bergers and didn’t like that their weren’t exits about half the time; and he truly believed that what a bullet looked like when pulled out of an animal determined how well it killed. To that, he preferred deep penetrating bonded and monolithic bullets.
After writing each animal down, his own experience showed that elk killed with 6.5 cm and Bergers either dropped at the shot, or traveled on average 20% the distance that elk shot with his 338 and Barnes bullets. He didn’t switch what he used, but he became a lot less adamant that 6.5’s weren’t suitable for elk.


Again, my goal isn’t to argue with you, or get you to change what you use or anything like that. My goal is to move from an “belief, feelings, and myth” standpoint, to a more “data, logic, and measurable thought process” standpoint. To do that we all have to be very clear and detail oriented with what we say and do.

 

[35WhelenAI]

Bigger does not also mean faster nor mean the animal will shown a definite sign of being hit.

This was from a mature NE whitetail. He was shot under 300 yards with a 190 gr Berger out of a 300 WM; slightly quartered.

Using your logic, I should have used a larger caliber or more powerful cartridge as this buck should zero signs of being hit.

Sometimes animals just do not want to die while other times they'll give up the ghost easily.

View attachment 530284

Thanks for the pic and info. Can you share what the buck did with respect to no reaction? Stay in place and fall over, walk like nothing happened then fall over, etc.

I think this goes without saying, he was dead where he was. He didn't biologically die any faster or slower than if he dropped right away with that kind of damage, IMO. Congrats on the buck.

 

[Laramie]

Again, my goal isn’t to argue with you, or get you to change what you use or anything like that. My goal is to move from an “belief, feelings, and myth” standpoint, to a more “data, logic, and measurable thought process” standpoint. To do that we all have to be very clear and detail oriented with what we say and do.

I understand and I do believe your intentions are great. My beliefs and feelings are taken from years of experience that I do consider data. From those I use logic to make my decisions. I will concede that my experiences have not been apples to apples to yours mainly due to bullet selections. That might make a world of difference?

I am going to be in the Wyoming mountains again this year and hopefully will get a chance to see an elk or two taken with 6.5 147 ELDm as 2 in our party will be shooting them. One in a 6.5 PRC and one in a CM. I'll do my best to document.

 

[dsotm]

Fudds will never be convinced even in the face of data that they don't need their uber magnums

 

[Laramie]

Fudds will never be convinced even in the face of data that they don't need their uber magnums

I'm sure your wealth of experience on elk gives you the right to label someone like me.

I will admit, that is the first time I have heard of a 30-06 being labeled an "uber magnum". Lol

Good luck this fall.