Drop the 1,500 ft.lbs myth

[Shō[t]gun]

Check out this video by a guy who dropped an adult cow elk at 310m with a 30-30. In the video he shows a 100m zero and a 36" drop at 300, which punched into a simple ballistic calculator puts the MV at 2200ish and energy on target at ~750ft.lbs. The elk absolutely bounced off the ground and only made a single death twitch after a shoulder shot. Obviously this isn't the most ideal rifle setup for western hunting, but its an awesome example of what proper bullet construction and placement can do with only HALF the "recommended" energy numbers commonly parroted by folks who get the majority of their hunting knowledge from field&stream.

(elk hunt is the last couple minutes)

 

[Indian Summer]

I hate stories like that. It’s like people telling me how they killed elk at 300 yards with a headshot. Yeah it happens. But it shouldn’t. I bet I could kill one with a boulder if I rolled it off the hill at the right time. That doesn’t mean it’s a great weapon for elk hunting, Meaningless and unethical.

 

[bmart2622]

It does mean that the mythical energy numbers are irrelevant

 

[TimeOnTarget]

The 223 77 tmk thread here is proof 1500 is irrelevant. I’ve not done the math but that bullet probably doesn’t have 1500 at the muzzle.

 

[sierracharlie338]

Don’t you dare bad mouth field and stream!! A-a-Ron BOAL stealer worked there so everything must be factual that they print.

If you don’t have energy you don’t have dead deer………

 

[JohnJohnson]

Meaningless and unethical.

Can you tell us the ethical minimum bullet weight and impact velocity for elk?

 

[MuleyFever]

I hate stories like that. It’s like people telling me how they killed elk at 300 yards with a headshot. Yeah it happens. But it shouldn’t. I bet I could kill one with a boulder if I rolled it off the hill at the right time. That doesn’t mean it’s a great weapon for elk hunting, Meaningless and unethical.

I can agree with this some. Just because something works once doesn't mean it is ideal or should be repeated with confidence. Regarding the above video I dont see any indication it was a shoulder shot. With no actual wound chanel its all speculation as to what happened. Did the bullet fragment and catch the spine?

The ft/lb information is a good example of the illusion of repetition.

 

[t_carlson]

GREAT!!!

The cartridge debate is finally over. It has been settled, once and for all.

On to the next topic.

 

[sndmn11]

I hate stories like that. It’s like people telling me how they killed elk at 300 yards with a headshot. Yeah it happens. But it shouldn’t. I bet I could kill one with a boulder if I rolled it off the hill at the right time. That doesn’t mean it’s a great weapon for elk hunting, Meaningless and unethical.

The hunter put it through the vitals and the animal fell over to die. Death is permanently meaningful, but what part was unethical?

 

[Shō[t]gun]

Regarding the above video I dont see any indication it was a shoulder shot. With no actual wound chanel its all speculation as to what happened. Did the bullet fragment and catch the spine?

It’s in the video. The shoulder wound looks more forward because of the way it’s hanging but that internal wound area shows that it didn’t just drop because it was a spine shot. CNS hit and it’s was done.

 

[FB Trout]

Yup, at the muzzle on my Tikka, the 77 TMK produces ~1250 ft-lb of energy, but as noted is irrelevant. The bullet is an emphatic killer at the appropriate upset velocity.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

I hate stories like that. It’s like people telling me how they killed elk at 300 yards with a headshot. Yeah it happens. But it shouldn’t. I bet I could kill one with a boulder if I rolled it off the hill at the right time. That doesn’t mean it’s a great weapon for elk hunting, Meaningless and unethical.

But there isn’t a large group of people who go around spouting that boulders can’t kill an elk. There are people that say less than 1500 ft pounds is unethical and risky. Whether or not a .30-30 lever gun is the most consistent 300m tack driver really isn’t up for debate, but the data point that the bullet caused the intended damage and resulted in a clean kill at half the “minimum energy level” is pretty obvious.

 

[squid-freshprints]

Speed vs. momentum is a subject in which popular opinion is cyclical, and probably has been for 1000s of years. I think I can see the reversal point from 750 pounds is enough land.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

If you don’t have energy you don’t have dead deer………

I haven’t tested the minimum, but I guess it’s somewhere between 750 and how fast I can chuck it.

 

[Shō[t]gun]

The 223 77 tmk thread here is proof 1500 is irrelevant. I’ve not done the math but that bullet probably doesn’t have 1500 at the muzzle.

It’s close, but drops to 1500 just after 50y so it had to be fake.

 

[Maverick1]

But there isn’t a large group of people who go around spouting that boulders can’t kill an elk. There are people that say less than 1500 ft pounds is unethical and risky. Whether or not a .30-30 lever gun is the most consistent 300m tack driver really isn’t up for debate, but the data point that the bullet caused the intended damage and resulted in a clean kill at half the “minimum energy level” is pretty obvious.

I have killed plenty of elk with a 6mm projectile having “only” 80 ft-lbs of KE. Right through the heart or lungs and they die. Every single time.

 

[Indian Summer]

I have owned a 30-30 for 46 years. I would not shoot an elk with it.

 

[bmart2622]

Don’t you dare bad mouth field and stream!! A-a-Ron BOAL stealer worked there so everything must be factual that they print.

If you don’t have energy you don’t have dead deer………

Whats the minimum energy required for bullet expansion?

 

[sierracharlie338]

Whats the minimum energy required for bullet expansion?

My comment was tongue in cheek, I thought that was clear but maybe not. Does this help…

If YoU dOnT hAvE eNeGrY, yOu DoNt HaVe DeAd DeEr……….

 

[bmart2622]

It wasnt