Wyoming proposal to slash Non-resident hunters

[stevevan]

So are they going to fight this proposal?

I believe it takes one preference point to draw a MT Elk/Deer combo license, not sure what the fee is for that (I buy a NR deer combo OTC since I'm a NR Native) The number of NR deer/elk combo licenses was the same in 1979 as it is now, 17,000.

Outside of maybe a single point purchase, the cost analysis between 1979 and 2020 are essentially the same. Also fair to note the chances of drawing a deer/elk combo in Montana is pretty good without even a single point, IIRC, 25% of the 17k are in a random draw.

No doubt

 

[BuzzH]

So are they going to fight this proposal?

They will....the tight spot the legislature is in though, is there aren't enough outfitters to get them re-elected if they continue to fight Resident hunters.

There are enough Resident hunters to see they serve their last terms for not advancing the desires of their constituents....

Plus, there is growing number of co-sponsors and a similar version of this bill was one vote from advancing in the Senate TRW a couple years ago. Some heavier hitters are co-sponsoring this bill.

These types of changes are a marathon, not a sprint. You get the word out the first couple times, you sweeten the pot and make changes to the legislation along the way, you fire up the base, get more people talking about it. Eventually passes.

 

[lif]

I believe it takes one preference point to draw a MT Elk/Deer combo license, not sure what the fee is for that (I buy a NR deer combo OTC since I'm a NR Native) The number of NR deer/elk combo licenses was the same in 1979 as it is now, 17,000.

Outside of maybe a single point purchase, the cost analysis between 1979 and 2020 are essentially the same. Also fair to note the chances of drawing a deer/elk combo in Montana is pretty good without even a single point, IIRC, 25% of the 17k are in a random draw.

I believe the original post is about Wyoming. Montana maybe close to equivalent in your comparison. How many preference points did it take to draw region G deer 20 years ago , or 40 years ago for that matter? How about getting a Nevada tag 20+ years ago? How about Utah? Colorado? Arizona? I’d like to see all those states numbers. I understand some states have switched unit definitions, amongst other changes , over that timeline. But the added years of purchasing preference points alone has put a substantial financial burden on acquiring a tag. Everything goes up in cost over time, that I understand, but the constant cost increases, to just have a chance to go hunting, is clearly a money grab to me. I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you, but I am personally trying to decide how much hunting I can continue to do. That is real cost effect.

 

[JFK]

I don’t live in Wyoming but support the idea that they should be able to manage their game as they see fit. I will ask this though. I’ve read several times on this thread guys saying that the number of non-red hunters won’t go down. How is that? Of course it will. By 10%. The state will make up the money by nearly doubling license prices. In theory that should work. In terms of looking at the overall economic impact it will be less positive. Fewer people traveling through your state means anyone whose job is connected to NR hunters will feel it. Own lodging, run an outfitter, sell gas, run a processing business? Fewer NR hunters. Not because demand will fall off, it certainly won’t. But because there will be fewer tags.

 

[Michael54]

Does anyone else see the irony that every state that starts pushing out the nrs the residents immediately say "it puts us on par with everyone else" it seems regardless of where you hunt including here in pa 80% of the animals get shot by roughly 25% of the hunters. The other 20% by the other 75% that seem to cry the most. Eventually people are going to have to realize piss poor hunting skills and tactics are the reason for their piss poor hunting results and not someone from 3 states aways fault? If everyone hunted their home state with no non residents for a year the majority of the residents would still bitch and moan. Its a big time case of "you buy my cake and i'll eat it" in my opinion.

 

[Sierra Hunter]

NR hunting is not becoming a rich mans sport...its stayed relatively static in price for the 42 years I've been hunting...give or take.

What's going on right now is johnnie come lately type NR hunters just have short memories or weren't hunting out of state 3-4 decades ago.

Just for the hell of it, I went and looked up some statistics from Montana as an example of what a NR deer/elk combo was selling for in the year I started hunting, 1979.

NR cost was $226 dollars, average United State househould median income in 1979 was $16,530. So $226/$16530 would equal around 1.4% of the mean income for a NR MT combo.

Median average household income in 2020, is $68,703 current price for a MT NR deer/elk combo is $1052...so $1052/$68,703 would equal about 1.5% of the mean income for a NR MT combo license.

Has it went up in price? Yes, .014 to .015 of mean annual income or an increase of .001 or 1/10th of 1 percent of mean annual income since 1979.

The only way you can logically say its "becoming a rich man's sport" is if you agree that it has been for over 4 decades...otherwise its about the same its always been price wise.

Always important to keep things in perspective and the ratios do that effectively

 

[BuzzH]

I believe the original post is about Wyoming. Montana maybe close to equivalent in your comparison. How many preference points did it take to draw region G deer 20 years ago , or 40 years ago for that matter? How about getting a Nevada tag 20+ years ago? How about Utah? Colorado? Arizona? I’d like to see all those states numbers. I understand some states have switched unit definitions, amongst other changes , over that timeline. But the added years of purchasing preference points alone has put a substantial financial burden on acquiring a tag. Everything goes up in cost over time, that I understand, but the constant cost increases, to just have a chance to go hunting, is clearly a money grab to me. I don’t want to get into a pissing match with you, but I am personally trying to decide how much hunting I can continue to do. That is real cost effect.

I'll have to get back to you on that...just had some MT 1979 orders on hand as well as the current orders. I'm curious to compare Wyoming as well from 1979 to current as an example. I wasn't trying to cherry pick, just the info I had on hand.

I would venture a guess that some states were much easier to draw in the late 70's-maybe mid-90's. Cost wise, probably not significantly more expensive when comparing license costs to median US income would also be my guess.

Lets not forget though, who pushed the point systems, in many cases it was the outfitting industry. Ever wonder why Wyoming has a point system for NR DEA, but Residents do not?

Can you think of much in your life that hasn't seen constant cost increases? Cars? Trucks? Fishing tackle? Food? Houses? Fuel? Rifle ammo? Firearms? Arrows? Broadheads? Furniture? Binoculars? the list goes on and on and on.

I've never understood why license fees should not increase while everything else does???

Entitlement?

 

[N2TRKYS]

I'll have to get back to you on that...just had some MT 1979 orders on hand as well as the current orders. I'm curious to compare Wyoming as well from 1979 to current as an example. I wasn't trying to cherry pick, just the info I had on hand.

I would venture a guess that some states were much easier to draw in the late 70's-maybe mid-90's. Cost wise, probably not significantly more expensive when comparing license costs to median US income would also be my guess.

Lets not forget though, who pushed the point systems, in many cases it was the outfitting industry. Ever wonder why Wyoming has a point system for NR DEA, but Residents do not?

Can you think of much in your life that hasn't seen constant cost increases? Cars? Trucks? Fishing tackle? Food? Houses? Fuel? Rifle ammo? Firearms? Arrows? Broadheads? Furniture? Binoculars? the list goes on and on and on.

I've never understood why license fees should not increase while everything else does???

Entitlement?

I didn’t know that it cost more to make wildlife today than it did in yesteryear.

 

[KoolBreeze]

Never had the pleasure of hunting in Wyoming but hope to some day. I'm kind of torn on this. I think states should put their own residents first for the most part but at the same time I don't think it's as cut and dry on FEDERAL land. To me, all US citizens should get an equal opportunity to hunt on federal land. I can see some residents getting some preference but 90/10 seems a bit much.

 

[N2TRKYS]

NR hunting is not becoming a rich mans sport...its stayed relatively static in price for the 42 years I've been hunting...give or take.

What's going on right now is johnnie come lately type NR hunters just have short memories or weren't hunting out of state 3-4 decades ago.

Just for the hell of it, I went and looked up some statistics from Montana as an example of what a NR deer/elk combo was selling for in the year I started hunting, 1979.

NR cost was $226 dollars, average United State househould median income in 1979 was $16,530. So $226/$16530 would equal around 1.4% of the mean income for a NR MT combo.

Median average household income in 2020, is $68,703 current price for a MT NR deer/elk combo is $1052...so $1052/$68,703 would equal about 1.5% of the mean income for a NR MT combo license.

Has it went up in price? Yes, .014 to .015 of mean annual income or an increase of .001 or 1/10th of 1 percent of mean annual income since 1979.

The only way you can logically say its "becoming a rich man's sport" is if you agree that it has been for over 4 decades...otherwise its about the same its always been price wise.

That has little to do with the affordability of hunting Wyoming for me, if the price increase goes through.

 

[sasquatch]

If it lets me draw general more often then so be it.

Guys, it’s a lot easier to find a way to make a few hundred more dollars than it is to have decent elk tags every year!!!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[JFK]

I'll have to get back to you on that...just had some MT 1979 orders on hand as well as the current orders. I'm curious to compare Wyoming as well from 1979 to current as an example. I wasn't trying to cherry pick, just the info I had on hand.

I would venture a guess that some states were much easier to draw in the late 70's-maybe mid-90's. Cost wise, probably not significantly more expensive when comparing license costs to median US income would also be my guess.

Lets not forget though, who pushed the point systems, in many cases it was the outfitting industry. Ever wonder why Wyoming has a point system for NR DEA, but Residents do not?

Can you think of much in your life that hasn't seen constant cost increases? Cars? Trucks? Fishing tackle? Food? Houses? Fuel? Rifle ammo? Firearms? Arrows? Broadheads? Furniture? Binoculars? the list goes on and on and on.

I've never understood why license fees should not increase while everything else does???

Entitlement?

Your point is valid about things going up in price. Typically this has a lot to do with the inputs. Materials and labor going up over time. I’ll concede that in the case of game there is an aweful lot of work done to manage them, and it’s not done for free. But when something doubles overnight it raises some eyebrows. Count me in as someone who would support price increases if it meant wardens got nice fat pay raises and there was a demonstrable change in management for the better with increased opportunity. In this case I’m betting none of that happens. The state simply wants half the NR hunters and all of the money they have become accustomed to.

Using your example. Imagine for a second you were going to buy a new truck. You knew what you paid for last one, and figuring that things go up over time were ok with paying a little more. You go to the dealer and are informed that the current model year had doubled in price, but comes with less features and they don’t actually have one to sell you till a year from now. You voice some discontent in the direction they’ve gone and the salesmen then asks why you feel so entitled.

 

[Gobbler36]

Sucks for me as a non res with points but good for WY for watching out for their residents and their animals first. this is what every western state should be doing. hell we can only blame ourselves with every YouTuber out there telling everyone to come to the grand western elk hunt every year And people moving to the west to “be closer to the outdoors” and connected to their food what the hell did we think was gonna happen.
Idaho is going in the right direction hopefully we can actually remove some of the percentage of tags the next go around.

 

[sasquatch]

I have always been baffled by the high percentage of tags that Wyoming gives to NR, not that I was going to complain or raise the alarm. Especially the Bighorn Sheep, Moose and Bison tags.

What is the reason for this change? Are game populations declining or are resident hunter numbers going up?

Res numbers going up. Along with overall population increases everywhere. A lot of people competing for a small resource!!

Always remember, wildlife populations are managed for “habitat capacity”

More ppl will always equate to less habitat. Therefore smaller overall “carrying capacities”


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[BuzzH]

I didn’t know that it cost more to make wildlife today than it did in yesteryear.

I know it does...ever priced a wildlife over-pass on an Interstate highway?

Ever looked into the price per hour of helicopter time to classify big-game?

Ever looked at what a wardens vehicle costs?

Ever looked at what a GPS tracking collar costs?

Do I need to go on, or do you get the point?

 

[Wapiti1]

Look at the draw odds for the best elk area in Colorado for a Non resident and then compare them to non resident Wyoming. It would take a non resident 2x as long to draw Colorado as it would Wyoming. What other states give non residents 25% of the sheep, moose tags to non residents? How many other states out there have hunting areas that are not even open for non residents to apply? Name one area in Wyoming that as a non resident you can’t throw your name in the hat. Wyoming has been so liberal w tag allocations in the past that they have split the sheep tags 50/50 with non residents in certain areas giving the residents a chance to hunt one year and then gave the tags to non residents the next year.

I was referring to OTC elk tags in a tongue in cheek way. That didn't come across.

Jeremy

 

[IdahoHntr]

Your point is valid about things going up in price. Typically this has a lot to do with the inputs. Materials and labor going up over time. I’ll concede that in the case of game there is an aweful lot of work done to manage them, and it’s not done for free. But when something doubles overnight it raises some eyebrows. Count me in as someone who would support price increases if it meant wardens got nice fat pay raises and there was a demonstrable change in management for the better with increased opportunity. In this case I’m betting none of that happens. The state simply wants half the NR hunters and all of the money they have become accustomed to.

Using your example. Imagine for a second you were going to buy a new truck. You knew what you paid for last one, and figuring that things go up over time were ok with paying a little more. You go to the dealer and are informed that the current model year had doubled in price, but comes with less features and they don’t actually have one to sell you till a year from now. You voice some discontent in the direction they’ve gone and the salesmen then asks why you feel so entitled.

You can compare truck cost going up over time and tag cost going up over time in only a general sense, but you can't compare how the raises happen directly. Ford doesn't have to go through legislature to increase prices, they just do it with inflation every year. Game and fish departments have to raise price once every 5-15 years depending on the state, and then that price stays the same. They cannot raise prices every year and so can't just do a little at a time. They do it in one lump sum and then that increase has to last. Idaho for example last raised prices in 2009 before the raise starting this year. Compare a truck from 2009 to 2021 and tell me the price difference isn't a large amount. It all averages out, people just get to caught up on the cost from year to year. That just isn't how tag prices work.

 

[OXN939]

I'll have to get back to you on that...just had some MT 1979 orders on hand as well as the current orders. I'm curious to compare Wyoming as well from 1979 to current as an example. I wasn't trying to cherry pick, just the info I had on hand.

I would venture a guess that some states were much easier to draw in the late 70's-maybe mid-90's. Cost wise, probably not significantly more expensive when comparing license costs to median US income would also be my guess.

Lets not forget though, who pushed the point systems, in many cases it was the outfitting industry. Ever wonder why Wyoming has a point system for NR DEA, but Residents do not?

Can you think of much in your life that hasn't seen constant cost increases? Cars? Trucks? Fishing tackle? Food? Houses? Fuel? Rifle ammo? Firearms? Arrows? Broadheads? Furniture? Binoculars? the list goes on and on and on.

I've never understood why license fees should not increase while everything else does???

Entitlement?

The cost, IMO, isn't the sticking point. Reducing the NR distribution to 1 in 10 tags basically makes it an outside lucky chance to get a worthwhile license, which I totally get for moose and goats. Doing that for all species, though, basically sends the message that Wyoming's hunting is only for residents, and sorry about your luck if you're not able to rearrange your life to make living there happen. Thousands of tourists from the west and midwest come to the Chesapeake Bay where I live to fish for Striped Bass, Cobia, Redfish and Tuna. They all get the exact same opportunity as I do. Happy to pay my extra share as an NR, but it just doesn't seem fair to be relegated to such a tiny percentage of licenses for species that are often an easy weekend trip for resident hunters.

 

[Shooter264]

I was referring to OTC elk tags in a tongue in cheek way. That didn't come across.

Jeremy

I was replying to Orion but I get your drift, however, the OTC tag sales are a function of the population of animals. Colorado has tons more elk than Wyoming so it makes sense that there are more OTC opportunities. Just wait 10 years after those wolves are introduced and then see how drastically the OTC opportunities become. I feel bad for the state of Colorado, the wolves have decimated the NW corner of Wyoming.

 

[tdhanses]

I bet we do we have otc pronghorn hunts still. Sheep, moose, and goat are an 90/10 split. Elk and deer some units non residents get close to 40% of the tags.

Just because residents don’t apply there.