Defund the Police?

[Marbles]

Defunding the police would be stupid, however I feel like people would get what they deserve if that happened.

Politicians have been asking the police to do things they should not. I think the politicians should pay for that. I also think there are issues with the criminal justice system that need reform, however many of the issues are simply a reflection of society and cannot be effectively fixed in a vacuum without addressing the context in which they occur.

I find the flip flop on both sides of the isle hilarious. The left "don't go out and close the churches because of COVID, but mass demonstrations are ok in this case." The right "COVID restriction infringe on my rights, but we should support the violent suppression of peaceful assemblies."

Using instances of none peaceful assemblies does not justify the suppression of the peaceful ones. I believe in the First Amendment as strongly as I believe in the Second Amendment.

I remember the story of a Marine in Arizona who was shot and killed in his home when SWAT served a no knock warrant on the wrong address. The Marine acted like any man should when the door is kicked down without warning and his family was home. This is not a problem with individual officers, and pushing it to the level of the officer simply allows the failures of those in positions of power to go unaddressed.

The same thing happens in medicine, under staff, under train, and over work your people. Ignore mistakes so long as there is not a bad outcome. Then blame the staff when fatigue and overload catches up and a the mistake has a bad outcome. The public is partly to blame as they are unwilling to accept low quality, but they are also unwilling to pay what is required for quality. Thus encouraging gaming the system, rather than blunt honesty and creating a positive feedback loop that worsens the situation. This is made worse by poor use of funds and bad leadership at the administrative level.

Harder to discuss--as the conclusion will differ on a case by case basis--is when something crosses from a systems failure to negligence or maleficence on the part of front line personnel. This also happens, and cannot be allowed the cover of blaming the system.

I have a bad tendency to get too deep into these kinds of discussions, and I don't have the time for it right now. So please don't take a lack of further response as disrespect.

 

[luckydraw2014]

Most cities run on a legal charter that requires it have a police force, this like the Constitution is something cannot be just changed. All the cities that are looking to defund have been run by Liberals for decades....let those who voted these kind of parasitic politicians bask in what they sewed.

However, most if not all politicians live off non voluntary taxes and use the police to enforce their tyranny. I say throw them all out office and start over.

 

[rooster440]

I think defunding the police is ridiculous but it will appease those asking for it. I absolutely believe that police need to be held accountable for their actions. This opens up police reform. This gives both sides what they want.

I don’t believe that there will be a dramatic increase in crime in those cities just because there is “no police present”because of all the crime that takes place daily already. I think folks will get fed up with calling and a sort of vigilante type of scenario will arise. I’m curious to see how this all unfolds and I’m glad I don’t live in a city.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Glockster26]

In what world does defund = eliminate?

Anything funded by public $ has bloat. The PD is no exception.

Defund= to withdraw funding from, is the definition. Not to be a stickler, but if you withdraw funding from a department how would that said Dept pay for equipment, pay salaries, or operate on a day-to-day basis?

Anyway I don’t think you really need to defund the police. More than likely will happen is the cops that stick around will pull back go completely hands off and say **** it, it’s not worth it. Most of the police that have other options will leave that line of work. Departments will continue to struggle to hire.

 

[Evol]

I think in NYC they (BLM, etc) want to replace police patrol with social workers, stop traffic stops, etc.

 

[USMC-40]

They (Minneapolis) made their bed by electing these hacks. They can deal with whatever consequences happen. I, however, cannot imagine a world without police. As an individual its one thing - I can take care of myself, family, and neighbors, but as a business owner the game changes - the few instances where we have needed them they have been invaluable. What is the world coming to?

 

[Poser]

They (Minneapolis) made their bed by electing these hacks. They can deal with whatever consequences happen. I, however, cannot imagine a world without police. As an individual its one thing - I can take care of myself, family, and neighbors, but as a business owner the game changes - the few instances where we have needed them they have been invaluable. What is the world coming to?

It’s not a world without a police. It’s defunding as a means to dissolve an existing agency so that it can be replaced with a new, overhauled version. It’s not necessarily the best framing of words to describe the goal or potential outcome.

 

[Dustin the wind]

All I can say is I have way more of a moral objection to shooting an animal for sustenance than shooting someone doing serious harm to innocent people. If there also happens to be no legal repercussions for doing that, well....

 

[Wellsdw]

It’s a catchy slogan. Mostly empty promises as most of the budgets for the next fiscal year have been locked down. So to cut even 10% from a budget would be extremely difficult in 3 weeks. If any thing they will move funds from community projects which are generally good PR for pd and hand them over to a foundation (to get rich off of) or another city department and essentially keep going business as usual. What’s going to hurt pd is morale is in the gutter, turn over is high as hell and recruitment is all but gone. The officers I have interacted with in recent weeks as a fire captain has made me appreciate my job. Vast majority are good officers and they take a beating for a small group of trouble maker cops but more so the media

Thank you to any law enforcement out there on rokslide.

 

[sndmn11]

I think there has been terrible inefficiencies in a lot of law enforcement agencies and departments that found themselves with a little extra money 20 years ago. That kind of spending became the norm and it has resulted in fat and expanding budgets. The last handful of years I think has seen a trend in voters not providing additional money, and agencies now having to roll back and make cuts. An example would be in my area the Jeffco Sheriff's Office last fall shut down floors of their jail and has been releasing inmates early stating not enough man-power or operating money. It is/was the third largest agency in the state. I was a Police officer in two small towns for a handful of years, and I'm shocked at how much dollars worth of extra gear each unit is rolling around with.

There was a post in the firearms section about training vs equipment posts. I think LE agencies could operate far more efficiently by investing in their skills rather than new gear every fiscal year. A good portion of my family lives in this county as well, and nobody will vote to provide more money because of feelings of inefficiently throwing away what has already been provided.

I am not for "defunding" in the current mainstream sense and belief (even if erroneous) but there is only one way to force admins to treat their spending with more appreciation, and these agencies should be run fiscally like a business.

 

[Rmauch20]

“Among plans put forward by Black Lives Matter, MPD150 and other activists to replace police are:

Mental health responders to attend mental health crisis in place of armed police
(good luck with that. In my time 20+ as a police officer I dealt with some pretty violent people on mental health crisis calls. Have fun with those those they are total time sucks anyway)

Street outreach teams, more shelters and affordable housing to help solve homelessness and stop the homeless from being criminalized
(sounds good what does the funding come from?)

Traffic stops to be eliminated entirely, with traffic violations dealt with via. mail
(so we’re not going to enforce DUI’s anymore? That’s probably a solid choice I mean drunk drivers don’t really ever kill anyone on the road. This should go along ways to decreasing drug trafficking as well. )

Community members to attend domestic violence calls, to help intervene and establish long-term safety for the individuals
(Again have fun with those. It’s called domestic violence for a reason, the offender is a violent person. I don’t know if he or she will react well when a counselor and pastor show up to tell him to change his ways. Will probably end up getting their ass kicked in the front lawn as well.)

Specialized physical and emotional support for victims of sexual violence
(not a bad idea.)

Investing in prevention of sex trafficking to end economic and social conditions that lead to deeply rooted vulnerabilities
(again not a bad idea)

The legalization of marijuana to stop incarceration for the 'harmless' drug
(Agree)

Better handling of drug offences to stop 'criminalizing of communities of color'
( ok I guess, not sure what this entails.)

Decriminalization of sex work and formation of an independent union to ensure individuals have insurance, child care and safety precautions
(This could be a positive)

Restorative justice (meetings between victim and offender) to be used to deal with property crimes such as theft and burglary
(WTF! This isn't the dumbest idea they’ve had but it’s pretty ******* stupid)

 

[BeastOfTheTrees]

In that case, that is unquestionably foolish. The PD doesn't need brand new vehicles every other year and paramilitary equipment, but they CERTAINLY need to exist.

The police departments or any form of law enforcement needs whatever it is that helps execute the job more efficiently. Let’s pray one day that your not being help at gun point inside somewhere with an established makeshift perimeter. I’m sure then you’ll hope police have ‘paramilitary’ optics.

 

[BeastOfTheTrees]

“Among plans put forward by Black Lives Matter, MPD150 and other activists to replace police are:

Mental health responders to attend mental health crisis in place of armed police
(good luck with that. In my time 20+ as a police officer I dealt with some pretty violent people on mental health crisis calls. Have fun with those those they are total time sucks anyway)

Street outreach teams, more shelters and affordable housing to help solve homelessness and stop the homeless from being criminalized
(sounds good what does the funding come from?)

Traffic stops to be eliminated entirely, with traffic violations dealt with via. mail
(so we’re not going to enforce DUI’s anymore? That’s probably a solid choice I mean drunk drivers don’t really ever kill anyone on the road. This should go along ways to decreasing drug trafficking as well. )

Community members to attend domestic violence calls, to help intervene and establish long-term safety for the individuals
(Again have fun with those. It’s called domestic violence for a reason, the offender is a violent person. I don’t know if he or she will react well when a counselor and pastor show up to tell him to change his ways. Will probably end up getting their ass kicked in the front lawn as well.)

Specialized physical and emotional support for victims of sexual violence
(not a bad idea.)

Investing in prevention of sex trafficking to end economic and social conditions that lead to deeply rooted vulnerabilities
(again not a bad idea)

The legalization of marijuana to stop incarceration for the 'harmless' drug
(Agree)

Better handling of drug offences to stop 'criminalizing of communities of color'
( ok I guess, not sure what this entails.)

Decriminalization of sex work and formation of an independent union to ensure individuals have insurance, child care and safety precautions
(This could be a positive)

Restorative justice (meetings between victim and offender) to be used to deal with property crimes such as theft and burglary
(WTF! This isn't the dumbest idea they’ve had but it’s pretty ******* stupid)

That last one would spawn a new live TV

 

[goodorbit]

This is crazy, I don't know where you guys live but here in New York they are talking about de-funding the NYPD. Not to mention the media and politicians have completely put everyone against them. NYC is like a war zone right now. These cops have their hands tied. They cant even do their jobs. What is going on with this world.

I support the police

Can't imagine those NYPD guys having to do that job without the support of the city.

It's going to go back to NYC from the 70's & 80's! Mobs & Gangs ruling the streets, drugs everywhere, Disney is going to abandon Times Square to the peep shows. But hey, fake Rolex's and Fireworks will be cheap!

I support the police.

 

[WCB]

It’s not a world without a police. It’s defunding as a means to dissolve an existing agency so that it can be replaced with a new, overhauled version. It’s not necessarily the best framing of words to describe the goal or potential outcome.

Again, not what the MPLS city council president said. She specifically stated she/they want to move to a police free society.

 

[Jesse Jaymes]

Semi off topic..but anyone that posted, other than Rmauch....have Law Enforcement time?

Anyone ever tried to put a dude into the back seat of a rig....that doesn't want to go there?

Or cuff anyone that isn't too keen on being cuffed?

 

[WCB]

I think most of us here are thinking with reason....for those of you saying defunding is not eliminating police...I agree if it is phrased in the terms of defunding certain functions or programs in the departments.

Unfortunately I will put money on it that the large crowds supporting and shouting for defunding literally mean or think to completely defund and disband. I live in MN and the "leaders" coming out and saying they want to "police" their own neighborhoods with citizens are in areas that unfortunately the culture doesn't lend to that. There are reasons everyone avoids those areas...because the community allows sh!t to happen and thats facts.

 

[elkbowhuntr]

Ok let me start by saying I totally support police officers but like society as a whole you have good people and bad - same as police officers. What frustrates me is the lack of accountability; the cop at the center of this latest incident has 18 formal complaints filed against him in 19 years. There is a good chance if he has 18 formal complaints there are probably 100's incidents if not more he got away with; question - why in the world was he still on the force? My wife asked me this and although I haven't been a police officer I have served 23 years in the military so I am sure blind loyalty, peer pressure etc. has a lot to do with this. You don't want to be known as 'that guy' that cant be counted on etc.

Without police there would be total anarchy; the folks crying for defunding don't need the police - they have their own security details, gated comminutes etc. The less fortunate in this world don't seem to be able to step back and notice the people advocating for this are just pandering to their emotions at the moment in hopes of possibly picking up a vote or two.

IDK - the world sure is upside down right now - we need elk hunting to straighten it up!

 

[Poser]

Again, not what the MPLS city council president said. She specifically stated she/they want to move to a police free society.

Well, that’s from the mouth of one person and probably one of the more extreme positions. That being said, some or even many of these demand align with the philosophies of libertarianism.

 

[Milestone522]

As someone who retired in February after 26 years Policing at two of California’s most violent cities I thought I would give some perspective to those who do not understand how the busy cities operate at the PD budget level. I will start by saying justice costs money, and from the investigative side that the PD handles (not the DA, Courts, or Corrections) justice has a budget in each fiscal year. Most think of PDs (and SOs, Troopers, etc) from the patrol/ uniform side of things (they are the backbone of each department) but for them budgets only really control staffing and overtime before/after shifts. That side of the budget controls the pro activity or response time to calls for service.

As someone who worked sex crimes, child abuse, and as a homicide detective, that budget too is yearly and strictly controlled. The reason why homicides are not usually solved after 48hrs is money, extra time to work cases cost money. As for sex crimes or child abuse let me give an example.

A serial rapist runs around town for weeks kidnapping women from grocery store lots, workplace parking lots, or in front of their homes. Each victim requires a specialized sexual assault nurse to conduct a forensic exam (costs money), each kit has DNA samples that need to be tested at a crime lab (costs money), Detectives (costs money) are called in 24/7 to respond to the hospital for an initial brief interview, to speak with the SA nurse, and receive the kit. Detectives conduct the investigation obtaining additional statements, canvassing crime scenes, etc (costs more money). Once the suspect description is recognized as being involved in multiple cases a rush is put on all the test kits DNA (costs extra money). Suspect flees to another county or state. Once identified and captured out of jurisdiction Detectives need to respond immediately to interview before he is booked (costs money). Who would want that case to be delayed or shelved when it was their mother, sister, daughter, or spouse?

I could go on and on and talk about 300+ Women or children who were abused, burned, raped, sodomized, strangled, beaten close to death, or sexually assaulted. Or 80+ adults who were gunned down in the street, beaten to death in their homes, shot dead in their cars, or even behind the counter of their business. But every one of those cases I investigated costed money, and every year it had to be balanced between what we could accomplish with what funds we had and were running out of each fiscal year. Cases got stacked up for weeks delayed at one stage or another due to the lack of funds, and we even had multiple grants to help pay for them. Most departments are already understaffed and underfunded And to cut funds to give to other city/social services is just going to compound an already overwhelmed major crimes system.