Expandable and Fixed Broadhead performance from a guides perspective

[the_bowhunter]

I think what would be helpful is the data that captures what happens when shot placement is in the vitals. My guess would be that of those that hit the vitals, it doesn’t matter what type of head was used out of an adequate bow.

Comparing two types of BH’s on poor shots with poor shot placement and even worse recovery information doesn’t really tell me much information that is relevant.

Well sorry my observations from the field could not help you. Good luck to you during this hunting season


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[the_bowhunter]

Here is some data that is from a well known deer tracker on facebook that has a dog that is extremely successful at what it does. Granted we don't know the set ups of these bows and what arrow weight. Take the information for what it is worth. I can only imagine the stats can be compounded on elk because of their size.


Tracking Statistics for the 2017 and 2018 Tracking Seasons (Archery Only)

- We recovered 50% of all tracks that we went on (firearm and archery).

- 58% of our archery tracks were for compound bows and 42% were for crossbows. Compounds had a recovery rate of 53% and crossbows had a recovery rate of 55%.

- 55% of our tracks were for passthrough shots and 45% were for non-passthrough shots. Passthrough shots had a recovery rate of 68% while non-passthrough shots had a recovery rate of only 29%. 79% of fixed broadheads were passthroughs and 44% of mechanical broadheads were passthroughs.

- Crossbow tracks were 0% fixed broadheads and 100% mechanical while compound bow tracks were 53% fixed broadheads and 47% mechanical.

- Fixed broadheads made up 31% of our tracks and mechanical broadheads made up 69%. Recovery rates for fixed were 60% and mechanicals were 47% (Note: Front deploying mechanicals had a 7% better recovery rate than rear deploying mechanicals but rear deploying heads had a 10% better passthrough rate compared to front deploying heads.).

- The average total distance from the shot location to the recovered deer was 487 yards.

- 3 deer were recovered within 50 yards of water but only 1 deer was recovered that we feel intentionally went to water to drink.

- 26% of unrecovered deer were later confirmed "still alive" after tracking (trail cam, visual confirmation, harvested later in the season, etc.).

- The average shot distance for all tracks was 25.9 yards.

- The average age of all tracks was 13.4 hours old.

- Based on each hunter's report and analysis of recovered deer, 85% of all shots impacted the chest or abdominal cavity.

- 31% of shot deer were tracked too soon by the hunter and subsequently, they bumped the deer.

- Our tracking consisted of 80.5% requests for buck recovery and 19.5% requests for doe recovery.







(Updated 11-10-18) It's the peak of tracking season which means I have almost zero free time to edit and post videos of past tracks. As soon as things ease up, I'll resume the uploads. In the meantime, here are a few stats from this season so far.

Tracks: 27
Recoveries: 16
Confirmed Alive After Tracking: 2
Avg. Age of Track: 14.6 hours
Avg. Shot distance: 32.4 yds
Buck Tracks: 76.6%
Doe Tracks: 23.4%
Passthrough Recovery Rate: 75%
Non-Passthrough Recovery Rate: 12.5%
Avg. Advancement of Recovery Tracks: 297 yards
Avg. Advancement of Non-Recovery Tracks: 254 yards
Avg. Recovery Rate for Fixed Broadheads: 57.1%
Avg. Recovery Rate for Mechanicals: 52.9%
Top 3 Reasons for Tracking Request:
- 1) Arrow Penetration (minimal internal damage)
- 2) Tracked too soon/jumped deer
- 3) Shot placement

Awesome info here! The recovery rates for this tracker don’t lie. A hunter needs to consider if his setup is capable of passing through his intended target.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[traviswdalton]

Too many variables to track to make any confident conclusions from recovery data. Those not recovered give no data because you have no idea what happened......bad hit, deflection, etc. We also have no idea on the tuning of the bow, arrow flight, etc. Add in draw weight, draw length, arrow weight, etc and that's a lot of variables. Then add in the most important variable.......the shooter. If you read enough on these forums you'll come to the conclusion that most bowhunters can't hit the broadside of a barn in good conditions.

I thought everyone was good out to 100 yards


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[LostArra]

For those here that find no value in the information presented by the_bowhunter or the dog tracker because it was incomplete:
What exactly are your criteria for broadhead selection: advertising? trial and error? Archery Talk??!!

I don't have an unlimited budget and I'm pretty stubborn about changing anything but I do like to see the experience of others so I found the information very interesting and useful. With my deadly combo of slow bow and lower draw weight I'm a bit limited in what I will consider for broadheads (fixed only) but #1 they have to be accurate.

One question I had about the guided group: is there greater pressure to take a shot when you are paying for a guided hunt? I'm not necessarily talking about distance but just shot situation.

 

[OR Archer]

I'm more shocked at the poor rate of recovery of animals than the broadhead "data"

 

[jmez]

I'm more shocked at the poor rate of recovery of animals than the broadhead "data"

I'm not. I think it happens far more than everyone thinks. There were 4 guys camped near where we elk hunted this year. By mid season, 3/4 had hit elk and not recovered them.

 

[Silvereagle50]

My dad and I went on an elk hunt several years ago in North Dakota.
We were both shooting PSE bows that were similar, he was shooting aluminum arrows and I was shooting carbon/alum, both shoot about the same poundage and draw lengths.

My dad was using the tried and true Thunderhead 125s. I was using Rage 2 blade. We both got shots right about 30 yards. We both had perfect broadside shots and hit in near identical places (and just about where you would walk up to an elk and point your finger and say hit right here). His was a complete pass through and went 20+ yards beyond the elk. I watched my arrow on its complete path. Watched as it hit the elk. Was expecting to see the fletchings disappear. Not even close. I'd say I got a little over 1/2 my arrow in penetration.
My dad's elk rared up like a stallion and fell over. Mine spun around and ran about 30 yards and then walked about another 40 yards and laid down. We watched it a little while. something else had our attention for a second or two and looked back to find my bull up and walking away. Shot at that bull 3 more times (missed once as my guide pushed him out of some heavy cover by me). The last shot was with him on the ground and just to put him out of his misery.

I can say for me, I'll never elk hunt again with anything but solid fixed blade broadheads (Thunderheads has never failed me)

 

[Brandon_SPC]

I'm more shocked at the poor rate of recovery of animals than the broadhead "data"

I'm not shocked at all. I happen to live in the south where we can shoot a deer a day from October- February and unlimited hogs. With that comes a lot of tracking trips with friends helping other hunters. I have been on many tracking trips and there are ALOT of animals that do not get recovered. And the majority of animals that do not get recovered goes right back to that other trackers data... No exit hole. Last year we tracked a doe that only had one lung punctured and she ran over 1/2 mile (by tracking collar) before we found her and the hunter had to put another arrow in her.

 

[Piscatory_4]

Bulls lost in the field- 7 or 8 total

Elk killed in the field- 11

WOW, that totally sucks. I thought it was unusual to lose animals in the field, like 1-2% or so. Such has been my experience since starting hunting in 1972. My experience this year is really making me rethink archery hunting for me.

 

[Wellsdw]

Am I the only person that sees the mechanical camps reaction to all these studies as, (I don’t like the results of ALL TESTS, so I say “ meh to Many variables”)
Fact =big holes kill
Fact=Exit holes kill And recover

 

[the_bowhunter]

For those here that find no value in the information presented by the_bowhunter or the dog tracker because it was incomplete:
What exactly are your criteria for broadhead selection: advertising? trial and error? Archery Talk??!!

I don't have an unlimited budget and I'm pretty stubborn about changing anything but I do like to see the experience of others so I found the information very interesting and useful. With my deadly combo of slow bow and lower draw weight I'm a bit limited in what I will consider for broadheads (fixed only) but #1 they have to be accurate.

One question I had about the guided group: is there greater pressure to take a shot when you are paying for a guided hunt? I'm not necessarily talking about distance but just shot situation.

I wouldn’t say that there is greater pressure to get a shot off. The guide should do his job in presenting the hunter with a shot on an elk that is within the hunters range and capabilities.

I would say that in the moment of a bull coming in, there is a greater pressure to get a shot off before the actual shot gets presented. Guys lose their mind, forget to nock their arrows, use the wrong pin, don’t look through their peep, don’t level their bow, punch the trigger, etc. The bull starts coming in and you get excited and shoot. Understandable in these kind of situations but unfortunately leads to clean misses and wounded bulls.

I do see that DIY guys seem to be more prepared for their hunts than guys who are going on a guided trip. When guys are sighting in their bows in camp, it doesn’t give you the best confidence in them from a guiding standpoint.

Disclaimer: you should shoot your bow in camp and check for bumped sights and make any small changes due to elevation.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[5MilesBack]

I thought everyone was good out to 100 yards

If you pay attention enough you'll see that most just ridicule those that can shoot well at most all distances.

Each year I hear of more and more animals lost around the areas I'm hunting. I'm beginning to realize that this seems to be more of the norm than the exception. This year I heard about one guy that had already shot three elk and hadn't recovered one of them. That's beyond pitiful.......that's a disgrace.

Have no idea if a lot of guys get buck or bull fever, they're shooting a subpar setup for elk, or they're just taking questionable shots. I could have taken two different shots at herd bulls this year, but neither were guaranteed success shots (some brush or branches in the vicinity) and I passed on both. They may very well have worked, but then again they may have very well added to the lost bull count too. Shot selection is of prime importance to me these days, I want a good hit and very quick kill. Both fixed and mechanicals will provide that when I'm taking shots I'm 100% confident in.

 

[Billy Goat]

One factor with mechanicals is a lot of shooters still think they fly like field points. They certainly can. However most guys shooting fixed will definitely tune or sight in with the fixed broadheads. I don't know a real number but it wouldn't surprise me if mechanical shooters it was in the 40-60% realm haven't actually shot their broadheads until at an animal.

 

[stonewall]

Interesting thread. Thanks op for sharing

My hunting partner had a pass thru on a cow at 20 using 3 blade grim reaper expandable. Good shot placement

My bull this year I shot 20 yard frontal. Buried arrow. No exit hole. Only blood I found was where he fell. Thankfully that was in sight 35 yards from where I shot him. Slick trick magnum fixed blade

I heard a podcast. Maybe Snyder with Chris roe. Suggesting to keep both in quiver depending on situation or follow up shots. This seems reasonable to me. I’ve never shot anything with expandable yet. Personally feel more comfortable with fixed. But maybe a follow up shot at 80+ or something. Or if it’s windy conditions maybe pull out expandable. Idk. Something to ponder

As far as people losing their presence of mind when things go down....during the civil war muskets/rifles would be found after battles with multiple rounds shoved down the barrel. Evidently in the heat of battle soldiers would reload and maybe actually pull the trigger but would never put a cap on the nipple. Seems like I remember hearing as many as 11 found in one (that number is from memory and could be wrong - point is it was a lot)

 

[87TT]

I live and hunt in Idaho so this is all moot to me. No mechanicals here. Even if they were, I would still use fixed though.

 

[ShortMountain91]

So after I paper tune then walk back tune my bow, a slick trick viper trick hits right with my field points. Can't tell any difference between the 2. So if a sharp coc fixed blade shoots perfectly, the only advantage I see to mechanicals is cutting diameter (not necessarily cutting surface) which might help with poor shot placement and might give you a better blood trail. To me those very marginal benefits are outweighed by the potential downsides (not deploying properly, weaker, and less penetration). Maybe to some the possible better blood trails and cutting diameter are worth the risk but to me its an easy choice.

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

 

[Gumbo]

I practice year-round, tune my bow myself, and consequently shoot better than most. But in spite of having hunted for 35 years, I still struggle with my brain going to absolute mush at crunch time with a bow or shotgun (although not a rifle), and send arrows way too soon or that should not be sent at all. The thumb trigger helped for a while (4 years), but this year I went to mush again, but thankfully missed. I am now completely committing to Joel Turner's methodology.

My point with this is that I think this is precisely where lost animals come from the majority of the time, people who rush and/or simply can't keep it together. And I see this time and time again on youtube and hear it in stories from the field (although there is usually a little different rationalization given by the shooter). I think people like Dudley, Gillingham, the Primos crew, and other folks who put mechanicals where they need to be show how effective they are even without a pass through (Primos guys get horrible penetration but put the arrow on the money). And I think they are pretty honest about what actually goes down. Then I see the Youtube video crews who appear to have the same problem I do (plus limited shooting skills) and guess what, they lose animals. Unfortunately there are far more hunters like the Youtube crews than there are Dudleys.

I also believe the same phenomenon is responsible for cops shooting kids with hoagies or saying in court "I don't know what happened, the gun just went off."

 

[MattB]

Am I the only person that sees the mechanical camps reaction to all these studies as, (I don’t like the results of ALL TESTS, so I say “ meh to Many variables”)
Fact =big holes kill
Fact=Exit holes kill And recover

Maybe the mechanical camp has a better background in statistics?

The OP's data, while interesting and appreciated, represents a small sample size and doesn't begin to explain "why?".

There is also a comprehensive study (Camp Ripley?) that shows a significantly higher recovery % with MBH's - albeit it on deer.

Having shot ~70 animals with MBH's and having watched another ~30 shot with them, I have my own theory on MBH "failures" and it has very little to do with the actual capability of the head design. That said, I carried 3 blade COC heads in my quiver on my moose hunt last week.

 

[Zoa]

Maybe the mechanical camp has a better background in statistics?

The OP's data, while interesting and appreciated, represents a small sample size and doesn't begin to explain "why?".

There is also a comprehensive study (Camp Ripley?) that shows a significantly higher recovery % with MBH's - albeit it on deer.

Having shot ~70 animals with MBH's and having watched another ~30 shot with them, I have my own theory on MBH "failures" and it has very little to do with the actual capability of the head design. That said, I carried 3 blade COC heads in my quiver on my moose hunt last week.

What's your theory?

 

[5MilesBack]

This year I really wanted to use one of my 125gr Grim Reaper Fatal Steel mechanical heads on a bull moose, but out of an abundance of caution I decided to use a 125gr QAD Exodus swept blade head for my first shot and hoped to get a 2nd shot so I could test out the GR as well.....and I did. I have used the 3-blade over the top mechanicals with a 1.5" cut (GR and NAP Spitfire) on big bull elk with great success, so figured they'd work on moose too.

I'm shooting 32 7/8" measured draw with a 520gr arrow going 284fps. I have no idea what the draw weight is set at right now because I turned it down because of a limb splinter before the season, but the arrow weight and speed is correct. I was shooting 75lbs before I turned it down so it's probably close to 70........definitely above average energy and MO.

The Exodus arrow pretty much passed through, I think it was only hung up on the exit by the fletching. That arrow smacked a large rib dead-on going in and I believe also going out. That was a 53 yard shot. The mechanical BH arrow was from 38 and through both lungs but about 4" of the nock end of my 30" arrow stuck out his side. I believe the BH stuck into a rib on the offside because it broke off (never found it) and there was some blood shot evidence on the inside of that offside shoulder.

So, both arrows penetrated adequately given my setup and both would have been kill shots on their own. There was sufficient blood on the ground from the Exodus, but a heck of a lot more blood from the mechanical, even with a higher hit. This still proves nothing other than a well-placed shot with either will work if your setup has enough ooomph to get enough penetration.